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Old 11-03-2015, 07:04   #301
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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That doesnt work for me. If I had no experience with the vessels manufacture, or was thinking of changing from mono to multi, Im not going to sign a contract and put 10% down.



I look at paying a surveyor as "lost money" if I decide to not purchase, and so with a prelim sea trial. I will pay a sum for the trial to be refunded if purchased and lost if I decide no. 1K should cover 4 hours in a test.



No way will I put 50K down and sign agreement unless I have some clue as to what Im buying.



Ive never had a problem doing this ......

As this is a vessel for sale in the US and for sale by a broker I believe it would follow the protocol which is contract and 10% deposit.
I can see very little advantage in your way of purchasing. If you write the contract to protect yourself you should be able to get out of the sale and have your 10% deposit refunded for refusal because it didn't pass your personal inspection.
You may also set up the contract to give you the right for a sea trial before survey. And let's face it, for a little over 1k you could sea trial and survey that boat, much better value for the money!
If you give 1k for a sea trial, you the buyer are not in control. While out for the sea trial the broker may receive a call from someone making a full price offer, you would be out 1k and possibly lose the boat you've dreamed of. With the contract, the buyer is in control.
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:47   #302
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
As this is a vessel for sale in the US and for sale by a broker I believe it would follow the protocol which is contract and 10% deposit.
I can see very little advantage in your way of purchasing. If you write the contract to protect yourself you should be able to get out of the sale and have your 10% deposit refunded for refusal because it didn't pass your personal inspection.
You may also set up the contract to give you the right for a sea trial before survey. And let's face it, for a little over 1k you could sea trial and survey that boat, much better value for the money!
If you give 1k for a sea trial, you the buyer are not in control. While out for the sea trial the broker may receive a call from someone making a full price offer, you would be out 1k and possibly lose the boat you've dreamed of. With the contract, the buyer is in control.
You missed my point.

HOW am I going to know if I like a vessel if its a one off with no prior experience of it or even if Im going to like it?

The seller wants a contract and 50K on this basis?

No.

A survey and deposit will follow IF I wanted it...Im not a buyer until I become a buyer......
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:44   #303
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Lets say taking someone out on that boat takes 1/2 a day.

What is a reasonable 1/2 day charter fee for a 500k boat?

If someone said, $500. I might just pack a picnic basket and bring the kids along.

I have taken all viewers of my boat out on it. Primarily because I like to go sailing and I think at my price point the boat itself is a big seller.

However, it is just not the norm in the boat world to let people test drive stuff, without some sort of obligation or commitment.

Having said all that - I too would be "very" hard pressed to commit buy a $500k boat if I had no idea how it would sail.

TS at least has the first hand experience of a "friend" who spent a lot of time on that boat.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:35   #304
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Good reference.
If anyone bothered to read thru that review I think they might find at least 3 references to the enjoyable steering,...one quote...
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There is a real sense of gliding across the water, and this is a large part of the pleasure felt at the helm.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:45   #305
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Tiller vs Hydraulic

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.... I'm a lover of tillers myself, but in a boat of that size and displacement, not realistic
What does the size of the vessel and tiller steering have to do with one another?...other than the physical size and placement of the 'manual system' vs the 'hydraulic one'.

What type of steering do you see on a number of the BIG ocean racing tris?

If you truly have a 'balanced boat' then the helming forces should be VERY small. This is what all designers and helmsmen should be seeking when designing the sailplan/waterplan, and deploying/trimming the sails. Its a great feeling to sail a boat with only two fingers on the tiller. You realize you have accomplished the best of worlds (sailing that is).
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:00   #306
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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You missed my point.

HOW am I going to know if I like a vessel if its a one off with no prior experience of it or even if Im going to like it?

The seller wants a contract and 50K on this basis?

No.

A survey and deposit will follow IF I wanted it...Im not a buyer until I become a buyer......
I'm afraid I would have to agree with you at this point, on this sale. The seller or the broker should be willing to take this small preliminary step forward in the process. The vessel has been for sale for quite some time, apparently without many offers, so when someone shows up and espresses his sincere interest in the vessel, I'd be arranging for a test sale....right away. (besides I get a good sailing trip and first-hand knowledge out of it if I were the broker).

There does appear to be some question about additional (much?) weight being added to the vessel. Did that occur before of after the 'captain /friend' was aboard the vessel. And how has that affected the vessel.

I would also suggest that the buyer take along that captain/friend or another experienced multihull sailor to help with his evaluation of this preliminary test sail, since the buyer's experience is somewhat limited in multihulls.
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:37   #307
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
You missed my point.

HOW am I going to know if I like a vessel if its a one off with no prior experience of it or even if Im going to like it?

The seller wants a contract and 50K on this basis?

No.

A survey and deposit will follow IF I wanted it...Im not a buyer until I become a buyer......
I got your point but I believe you missed mine
You can place whatever contingencies you want in the contract. The usual would be sea trial, survey, personal inspection and the ability to get financing and insurance. If you wanted you could ad a sea trial before survey. You can get out of the contract by refusing the boat for any of the above contingencies. Once you refuse the boat you get your REFUNDABLE 50k back.
What this does is it gets a binding contract at a set price. After you do sea trial and survey you could negotiate the price if you feel necessary. The buyer basically has control as the seller has agreed to sell the boat for the contract price. Then again, the seller feels good as the buyer has coughed up a 10% deposit, which in this case is enough money to show good faith.
Now why would a seller want take anybody sailing who shows an interest in the boat? That could get old really fast. I'm also sure if he wanted to take people sailing for money he would have put his boat in charter. The standard US brokerage method to me makes sense. It weeds out the tire kickers.
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Old 11-03-2015, 13:08   #308
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I agree with SMJ - typically the conditions include a satisfactory sea trial at the sole discretion of the purchaser. It really is a no-lose from your perspective as the broker is required to keep the deposit in escrow pending completion of the sale - if you are not satisfied with the sea trial for whatever reason(s), you can end the process then and there. What it does, as SMJ points out, is show that you are serious and that you have the ability to pay 10% of the purchase price up front. Not unreasonable.

Brad
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Old 11-03-2015, 15:15   #309
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

There is a term in real estate, motivated seller. It seems we have established this seller is not motivated. While looking for boats I had guys offer to take me out for a sail just because they liked to sail and they declined to let me buy them dinner after the sail. Also had guys at the other extreme who seemed to act like they were afraid to see the boat move at all.

SMJ is right about the benefits for both sides accruing from a standard contract. But the bottom line is the answer to how things are done is it depends.

In this case the seller seems set in his ways and I doubt things will change.

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Old 11-03-2015, 16:43   #310
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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"The price won't come down until it sits long enought for him to feel the real price. As long as he keeps getting offers for ever higher amounts, he will sit tight and bluster."

The boat has been for sale for over four years - thus my original question.

I can find old ads and listings from back then for $1.2M on the US East coast. Over the next three years the offering price dropped to $875K, $650K, and finally $525K.

I think the market has spoken very clearly about the value it assigns to the boat.

My understanding, which is limited and based on 2nd hand reports, is the charity will keep the boat and use it in a educational program.

IRS regulations allow deduction of "fair market value" deduction up to 50% of the taxable income. That value is established by a NAMS or other licensed/certified appraiser in a written and notarized letter to the IRS. The top federal IRS tax rate is 39.5% and is 12% in California. Therefore, the maximum deduction could be 51.5% of the established value. And, on that basis I think my offer was worth a lot more than the tax write off, which to my non-attorney/account mind, would have to be less than the current offering price.

"Any less than that and I've politely suggested the buyer look at some other yachts closer to their budget.."

That is a curious statement to make. If the only two offers received over a four year period are 30% below offering price - then I would suspect the offering price is a bit too high. Are you saying any owner can set any price they wish, no matter what the market will pay, and you will only accept offers near the otherwise ridiculous offering price?

Doesn't seem realistic to me!
I think you have to assume he has a company who had all the expenses on her. Put that up to 1 million and figure out the tax benefits.
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Old 11-03-2015, 16:50   #311
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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"To try to get into the mind of the owner is simply pointless."

So True!

I called the charity that was to have received the boat to see if I could purchase it from them.

They said that the boat donation was cancelled at the very last minute.

All I now know is that the owner didn't even want to hear my latest offer which was well within Monte's guidelines of acceptable negotiating.

I guess it is time to call the deal dead. ...
i like to tell you a story for real life;

A friend of mine was selling an expensive car. A buyer calls several times every day for a week. Even gets a discount on the original price.
The buyer still wanted to know more about the cars history etc.

Now my friend says; forget about it, you will not get to buy the car what ever.

Finally the buyer travels by plane to buy the car at the original price. My friend says no.

I asked my friend why and he said;
This man will come back to me every time he have a problem with the car. That is what these people do.

Get it?
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Old 11-03-2015, 21:48   #312
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Cutter Rig fan, me too

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I guess "keep an open mind" and "consider and reconsider all possible options" doesn't strike a pleasant note with you?

I've never been one to think I had the correct answer and am always willing to consider another opinion or perspective.

At some point we will have to commit but at this time, and after only six-months of consideration, we are still trying to keep an open mind.

As I said earlier: 20-some years ago, after more than 20-years of racing, I thought I needed a high performance boat and would be unhappy with anything else. My wife convinced me otherwise, and I am glad she did.

IF I had stayed locked in on the J-boats and their kind in 1994, I would not have discovered the joys of a medium weight, well designed, cutter rigged cruiser that has served us so well.

For now, I welcome all ideas and will consider each and every one.
So I'm back to reading thru this subject thread, and it turns out I've had to go all the way back to page 12,...wow, this is a long thread. Anyway I just saw this note of yours praising the cutter rig....a double headsail arrangement. I've also seen a few references in these discussions about folks getting up in years a bit and trying to wrestle with a big heavy full-battened mainsails.

Naturally I could not just continue to pass up the opportunity to inject an idea of mind I have defended for years,...no mainsail, double headsails, and a balancing mizzen

http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/

Aftmast rigs??? - Page 7 - Boat Design Forums



It makes fun reading if nothing else
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Old 11-03-2015, 22:03   #313
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I guess I should bring this interesting thread to a graceful conclusion.

The boat of my dreams was sold to a buyer who showed up after dark, literally, on the evening prior to the donation documents being signed. He had cash in hand and the boat was sold.

I knew nothing about the new buyer and tried to make an offer on Sunday and it was rejected.

I wonder if the sudden appearance of a new buyer at the 11th hour was a result of the long discussion we had here.

I do hope they enjoy their great new boat.

Thanks to all who participated here!
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Old 11-03-2015, 22:03   #314
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Adagio does seem like the right boat for us and this discussion is helping clarify that for us. But, since we first considered Adagio early last fall we have gone quite a ways down the following paths:
- Newer Nordhavn, Selene
- Older Flemming or DeFever 49 and update
- Major update to our current boat
- Minor update to our current boat
- Seawind 1160 that is on our dock
- Sell our boat, buy a Florida canal house and a PDQ 35
- Sell our boat and get an RV to explore the US

- Do nothing

We went for weeks at a time when Adagio was completely out of the picture, but, then we'd walk by her in one of our strolls around the marina and she would impose herself into our current life consideration.

At this point we are still open to all considerations.
Some rather 'different options' there. Perhaps I'll have an alternative proposal for you to consider ,...but first let me read some more of this subject thread .
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Old 11-03-2015, 22:29   #315
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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I have noticed that some times, life comes to a fork, where one can take either a fun and adventurous path, with some risks, or a safe and predictable path, which will be a bit dull.
I'm taking the fun direction every time, almost out of principle now ... and am happy to face the consequences.
It has brought me to some incredible moments, places and people... and I have no regrets.
I'll second that motion,...but it does get a little more difficult to head off into the ozone...... with age
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