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Old 03-03-2015, 17:37   #166
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Hmmm. Given your serious considerations of these other boats, and the reasons given for those considerations, my opinion has changed. I don't think Adagio is the boat you think it is, or will be happy with.
I guess "keep an open mind" and "consider and reconsider all possible options" doesn't strike a pleasant note with you?

I've never been one to think I had the correct answer and am always willing to consider another opinion or perspective.

At some point we will have to commit but at this time, and after only six-months of consideration, we are still trying to keep an open mind.

As I said earlier: 20-some years ago, after more than 20-years of racing, I thought I needed a high performance boat and would be unhappy with anything else. My wife convinced me otherwise, and I am glad she did.

IF I had stayed locked in on the J-boats and their kind in 1994, I would not have discovered the joys of a medium weight, well designed, cutter rigged cruiser that has served us so well.

For now, I welcome all ideas and will consider each and every one.
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Old 03-03-2015, 17:49   #167
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

The vibe I'm getting is that Adagio suits your personality, ethos and has already won your heart. The only issue is resale value down the line.

So, you need to buy it cheap - you've suggested $400k is a reasonable pricepoint. To my thinking you need to put a serious offer in, subject to survey etc, at $400k. If he doesn't come down then move on.

On the other hand, if time is on your side and you like the attributes of the Erik's designs you could always build one - or, take a good look at the Schionning designs. The G-Force 1500 Cruise would suit your needs perfectly, be a brand new boat with brand new systems etc and if you build it yourself you may very well be able to sell it in ten years time for what it cost you to build, if you keep it maintained well.

IMO they're a great looking performance cruiser with little draft. They don't have the accommodation of many other cats but they'll have much better performance and look better and I think these are the attributes that appeal to you.

Check them out - G-Force 1500C
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Old 03-03-2015, 17:51   #168
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Here's my idea... go charter, or beg rides, on various cats and make an informed decision...
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Old 03-03-2015, 17:55   #169
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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It would have to APPRECIATE 15.9% just to be even with inflation!
Yep, pretty close, assuming your 15.9% accurately represents the cumulative inflation over the period.

Just for illustration, assuming I could sell my boat for the surveyed amount of US$80K more than what I paid for it in 2006, that "appreciation" works out to be 16.3%.

Of course, any brokerage fees I pay when selling subtract from that, but maybe I won't pay any. But the point is that some boats retain more of their value than others.

Dave
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Old 03-03-2015, 18:07   #170
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

TS, the Grainger in FL would be up to the task, as well.
If that's where you mostly want to sail, I'd take a serious look at that one.
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Old 03-03-2015, 21:18   #171
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Back to the original question - why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Adagio is a unique boat. Like a lot of out-of-the-mainstream things, the market for this boat is very small, maybe two or three people on the planet. OK, maybe half a dozen. The seller knows this, and he's not desperate. He's going to wait until someone who appreciates the special qualities of his boat shows up. Someone who understands that Adagio represents good value in it's very special realm.

Tacoma, you are one of those half a dozen people. Comes time to sell, you'll be looking for one of the other five.

Joe
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:34   #172
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I sorta agree with conventional wisdom that most folks buy boats for more than they sell them for. Especially if one takes into account the opportunity cost.

This did not stop me from buying a boat. My reasoning was there is also an opportunity cost, especially for an old guy like me, in not buying a boat. Would I rather spend time living on a Seawind in the Keys or spend time looking for a better deal on a boat I might have to travel to even see and then possibly spend serious time and effort getting the boat where I wanted it.

Bottom line is you have to decide if you are going to fish or cut bait.

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Old 04-03-2015, 06:20   #173
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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What other advantage would be gained from buying a conventional, run-of-the mill, just like every other charter boat, catamaran?
Something sounds good on paper but reality is something else:
- With a production boat, it is often fixed on later editions.
- With a one off, you live with it or pay to have it changed.

Even if they dont' fix it, there are often owners groups where someone else already figured out how to address the issue.

If you have a goal of "being different" a run of the mill cat is still draws attention as being unusual at most marinas.
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Old 04-03-2015, 06:40   #174
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
I guess "keep an open mind" and "consider and reconsider all possible options" doesn't strike a pleasant note with you?

I've never been one to think I had the correct answer and am always willing to consider another opinion or perspective.

At some point we will have to commit but at this time, and after only six-months of consideration, we are still trying to keep an open mind.

As I said earlier: 20-some years ago, after more than 20-years of racing, I thought I needed a high performance boat and would be unhappy with anything else. My wife convinced me otherwise, and I am glad she did.

IF I had stayed locked in on the J-boats and their kind in 1994, I would not have discovered the joys of a medium weight, well designed, cutter rigged cruiser that has served us so well.

For now, I welcome all ideas and will consider each and every one.
Although Mark's message may have been a little harsh, I have to say I agree with his sentiment. If you want a performance cat, you would not even be considering those other boats. If you want all the creature comforts, then a performance cat and its inherent sacrifices may not be for you. This thread has tortured the issue enough and until you narrow down your desires a bit it'll keep going no where.
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Old 04-03-2015, 07:11   #175
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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I guess "keep an open mind" and "consider and reconsider all possible options" doesn't strike a pleasant note with you?
It is not that. It is that if you are so open and considering all possibilities to the point of having a Brazapi and a Lagoon/FP in play, then you are back at the drawing board. These boat types are chalk and cheese and you haven't decided if you want something to eat or to write with.

Because of this, the Brazapi has mostly negatives attached to it for you, while the Lagoon is cheaper and easier to get out of if you find you made a mistake. Let me lay that out a bit:
1. Brazapi is on West coast and you want to be on East coast.
2. Brazapi costs more
3. Brazapi has MUCH less interior volume and if you don't know if that will be a problem for you - you have spent a lot of time talking about space
4. If you find yourself unhappy with the Brazapi, you will have a more difficult time getting rid of it
5. Lagoon/FP can be purchased on the East coast for less money and are huge inside. If you don't like it, you can sell it quickly without losing too much money (if any).

I was attempting to help, not be harsh.

Mark
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Old 04-03-2015, 09:05   #176
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

"Because of this, the Brazapi has mostly negatives attached to it for you, while the Lagoon is cheaper and easier to get out of if you find you made a mistake. Let me lay that out a bit:"

It sounds like I have not expressed myself well and have not been clear about our confusion and ambivalence.

"1. Brazapi is on West coast and you want to be on East coast."
We are on the West Coast and in no hurry to get to the East Coast. We love Western Mexico and look forward to cruising another couple years there. Eventually seeing the Keys, Bahamas, Turks & Caicos is a a goal not a necessity.

"2. Brazapi costs more"
What I willing to pay for the Brazzapi is considerably less than the cost of most of the alternative boats suggested here.

"3. Brazapi has MUCH less interior volume and if you don't know if that will be a problem for you - you have spent a lot of time talking about space"
We don't need more space - we need more separation. I want to read or play with the computer out of sight of the TV. And we want a bigger cockpit where we can walk around without bumping into a steering pedestal or table.

We've spent a lot of time on Lagoon 440s and 450s, Helia, Leopard 44, Seawind 1160, Hughes 54, and do understand the space vis-a-vis our life style.

"4. If you find yourself unhappy with the Brazapi, you will have a more difficult time getting rid of it"
Very TRUE and one of my wife's primary concerns This is the major reason we have not committed yet. As you and several others have said - if there are so few potential buyers for Adagio, and not one has stepped forward in two-years and we, who love the boat, can't bring ourselves to buy her, then what will happen in five or seven years when we want to sell? Thus, back to my original message 12- pages ago!

"5. Lagoon/FP can be purchased on the East coast for less money"
I have not seen that to be true - all the OWNERS style catamarans (3-cabin) that are comparably equipped are more than the $400,000 max we are willing to pay.

"I was attempting to help, not be harsh."
I understand - I was trying to say that confusion and reconsideration are a good thing in my opinion. I do not want to lock into a single idea or approach until I have considered all the other options several times.

Adagio does seem like the right boat for us and this discussion is helping clarify that for us. But, since we first considered Adagio early last fall we have gone quite a ways down the following paths:
- Newer Nordhavn, Selene
- Older Flemming or DeFever 49 and update
- Major update to our current boat
- Minor update to our current boat
- Seawind 1160 that is on our dock
- Sell our boat, buy a Florida canal house and a PDQ 35
- Sell our boat and get an RV to explore the US
- Do nothing

We went for weeks at a time when Adagio was completely out of the picture, but, then we'd walk by her in one of our strolls around the marina and she would impose herself into our current life consideration.

At this point we are still open to all considerations.
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Old 04-03-2015, 09:54   #177
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

All this talk about Adagio. It looks like a great cat. I am going to make an offer today!






























Just joking!
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:14   #178
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I don't post often but your pen name indicating you're from my home waters and this boat being one I fell in lust with a couple years ago I couldn't contain myself.

What are you waiting for? You are miles ahead of the majority of us dreamer/voyagers with a wife who is actually pushing you to buy this boat, (except for her resale concern). Take that and run to broker with an offer, NOW! You and, it appears, your wife are in love with this boat. Of course you have to alleviate her financial fears as I will speak about below.

You have never said that a financial hit on the fire sale of the boat will be a devastating loss, your wife merely seems uncomfortable with the thought of losing money. You need to decide this. (In your disposable-fun-money-bracket, this is ‚€œonly money‚€Ě, what else are you going to do with it?) Also, that you are even considering an expensive boat I bet you have significant assets, in addition to your 400K boat fund, for maintenance, cruising kitty, life after boat, etc.... Lets assume maybe a minimum of 2, 3, 400K or better in other investments or home, maybe a pension or 401K, plus social security, such as it is. I think you said you are 67 so you only have so many years where you can do this. It seems from all your comments that despite your stated reservation whether this is the right boat, your paramount concern is her worry of a financial hit upon sale. Regarding you reservation, it seems that since you have already done extensive cruising on your 40' monohull that you should have a pretty good idea that this new boat is really what you want to do.

I think you need to tell us, or figure out, what you want to do when your boating days are over, say 5-15 years from now or, if this boat turns out to be a mistake and you decide to sell in a year or two what you think you would like to do instead. How I see this is that the boat won't be worth zero when you sell. Say you buy it for 400 - 500K. Even if you have a fire sale in 2 or 10 or 15 years it will still be worth, what, 2-3-400K. So what? Will this really stop you from doing something else. That‚€™s still a good chunk of money plus the other assumed financial resources you have. It would seem that you still will have the funds (less the one or two hundred K you ‚€œlost‚€Ě on the boat) to carry on with what ever future pursuits interest you. Maybe put some of it in a smaller/easier boat for kicking around in and go after your next life adventure.

Bottom line; this is what you must discuss with your wife: Will losing 1 or 2 hundred K really affect your life after the boat is gone? To me it seems it won‚€™t. But maybe I have made incorrect assumptions of your other financial resources.

I wish I was in your shoes, the GFC knocked me out of this league. Now go have this conversation with the admiral and make an offer.

All the best.

Edited to add that I was silently thinking like Canadian Cat. As I said I was once in lust with this boat.

Also interesting is the post about the why the market is so small for this type/size/age of boat. I'm gonna have to remember that. Show it to the broker.
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:47   #179
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

ejlindahl pretty much hit all the important issues in his message.

We are in the fortunate position we can support Adagio, or any other 45' - 50' catamaran, in the style they deserve to be supported. We can also afford to lose 50% or so of our initial purchase price over the next six or eight years without much effect on our future life style once we move ashore for good.

My wife knows the above very well but she is still concerned about what will happen in 2022 - 2024 when it is time to move ashore. We retired the first time in mid-2000 and went cruising. Two years later while in western Mexico the stock market tanked and our investments suffered loses of over 40%. I was used to those kinds of dramatic moves because I had been investing aggressively since the mid-70s. My wife had never paid any attention to the market and was truly panicked.

About six months later she decided to return to work because, in late 2002, she clearly stated "Yes the market will recover this time but I am sure there will be another big crash in the next 6 or 7 years and I want to be working when it does hit bottom..."

I vehemently disagreed and strenuously objected but, as history shows, she was correct. She now has trouble expecting we can live forever off our investments.

Living on our boat here in San Diego - our fixed, inflation adjusted, incomes more than cover all our expenses and we never touch our investments. That makes the wife happy but at some point we should start using some of those assets.

Our future plans, after we move off the boat for good, are to own a small house somewhere quiet and private. We want to be warm year round and live in a walkable community. We live a simple and relatively inexpensive life and that will not change much in the future.
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:18   #180
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Something sounds good on paper but reality is something else:
- With a production boat, it is often fixed on later editions.
- With a one off, you live with it or pay to have it changed.

Even if they dont' fix it, there are often owners groups where someone else already figured out how to address the issue.

If you have a goal of "being different" a run of the mill cat is still draws attention as being unusual at most marinas.
I don't know if any other 51 was built but Brazzapi, the builder was a production shipyard that worked with Le Rouge designs and have built many cats, particularly 41 and 46 ft. Even if the 51 is a custom boats many of the solutions have been tested by the designer and the builder in slightly smaller boats.

The Shipyard was originally a Belgium one but changed location for several times looking for cheaper labor: they built boats in several location finishing in Sri Lanka. The Brazzapi share holders let it go down and in 2008 the Shipyard started to produce the Brazzapi designs, slightly bettered by the name of Barramundi (41, 46 and 50ft). I believe the hulls were the same.It was in business till 2012/2013?



I agree that this type of cat, well built and away from the condo cat concept have a lower value used then the typical condo cat. They interest to less sailors and don't have the strong image associated to a brand that makes cats for 20 or 30 years and their built is more expensive.
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