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Old 03-03-2015, 09:13   #151
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by BruM View Post
Your list of objections is very real. To that I add sail drives are to be avoided.

People often want larger boats but that boat and it price puts it in the range where a buyer would rather buy new. They don't consider a used boat a good deal at any price.

Move up buyer who would consider a used boat are probably scared off by it size and all the problems and expense associated with that. People today want reassurance that their boat choice is a good one. With the web providing endless opinions on everything the crowd goes with certain brands regardless of the quality of other makes.

As others have pointed out selling that boat in the future will be difficult, I say near impossible because the cheaper it gets the more overwhelming maintenance costs are to that class of buyer.

To most buyers that boat would be considered too big, at any price.
This is actually an excelent point with a very large boat. As the boat gets older, the ongoing care and maintenance starts to become the primary financial driver and that ongoing cost only goes up with age. Early on if you can afford the purchase price, you can probably afford the ongoing costs. As the purchase price drops, you draw people who have smaller overall budgets. Eventually, you reach the point where the people who can afford the boat can't afford ongoing care of the boat. At that point, the market dries up.

To a degree this happens with all boats but a large one off that is subject to fast deperciation is likely to reach the tipping point much quicker.
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:33   #152
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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If you want to keep the wife happy and have a boat that is easy to handle and sails well you might want to check out an FP Orana Maestro version. The owners hull on the Orana is unique in that it has a walk around queen size master berth. You won't find another cat in the mid forty foot range with equivalent accomodations.

Interesting factoid. Wall-to-wall berths -- no walk-around -- has long been one of my two objections to cats. Can't think of many things more bothersome than trying to make up a bed by first climbing onto it...



Edit: A quick glance at the FP site doesn't show that model any longer, but I also noticed the 58 and 67 models solve my other objection... a flying bridge! And they each have "Maestro" version, too. If only my wallet wasn't perpetually challenged!

-Chris
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:44   #153
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Wants resale value?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...el-142202.html
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:53   #154
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I don't know Ranger, I can think of a number of things that are more bothersome. I guess I got used to it sailing monohulls over the years where v-berths, quarter berths and even aft doubles generally required the same contortions. Your 42 foot Sport Fisherman, however, probably avoids these issues (as well as other bothersome things like hoisting and trimming sails, tacking, etc.)!

Brad
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:57   #155
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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I don't know Ranger, I can think of a number of things that are more bothersome. I guess I got used to it sailing monohulls over the years where v-berths, quarter berths and even aft doubles generally required the same contortions. Your 42 foot Sport Fisherman, however, probably avoids these issues (as well as other bothersome things like hoisting and trimming sails, tacking, etc.)!

Brad

Yup! We went shopping for a centerline queen berth... with an uncluttered boat attached. (None of those pesky stays, halyards, winches, shrouds, etc etc etc.)




Actually, I only jest a little. We really did list (for ourselves) features we had to have and other features we wanted, without regard to length, propulsion, etc. Surprisingly few, anywhere near or at least on the same planet with our budget at least, met the must-haves.


-Chris
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:58   #156
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

So, have OP's wife and buyer broker met and decided on an offer to make and way to present it, including a way to present what the boat is worth and the OP's primary concerns? Or do you need to get a couple of the questions answered first, such as what was done exactly with the saildrives or get a chance to closely look at trim? Could something be help the view forward from the cockpit?
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Old 03-03-2015, 13:16   #157
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Test Response

I have posted three long involved messages to this thread in the last two days. Each time they appeared in the thread after I pressed "submit reply" but when i come back later - neither message is there.

I know the messages were there at one point because I edited each one after I saw them live. And, NO, I don't think I inadvertently deleted them while editing.

The messages seemed innocuous and just asked questions about the suggested boats.

The most recent message I don't see now was posted just a few minutes after Ranger42c posted his message at 10:57 PDT.

Can someone help me with missing messages?
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Old 03-03-2015, 13:34   #158
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Can someone help me with missing messages?
This has happened to me a lot and I finally got into the habit of highlighting and copying the text just in case a post got lost. When it does just paste what you copied into a fresh "Reply" page. I think there's a timer that expires or something if you don't "Submit" a posting quick enough.

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Old 03-03-2015, 14:19   #159
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Test Response

I have posted three long involved messages to this thread in the last two days. Each time they appeared in the thread after I pressed "submit reply" but when i come back later - neither message is there.

I know the messages were there at one point because I edited each one after I saw them live. And, NO, I don't think I inadvertently deleted them while editing.

The messages seemed innocuous and just asked questions about the suggested boats.

The most recent message I don't see now was posted just a few minutes after Ranger42c posted his message at 10:57 PDT.

Can someone help me with missing messages?
Looks to me like your responses ended up in the boat classifieds under "2009 Lagoon 440 Owners Version" .....Go figure....
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Old 03-03-2015, 14:24   #160
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Thanks Sid.

here is the message I wanted to appear here.

Thanks for the suggestions. I know some of you think it strange that we could consider Adagio, a custom Larouge performance cruiser, at the same time we talk about and compare to a Lagoon 440, Catana 471, or FP Orana Maestro.

I spent many years solving technical computing problems for companies all over the world. At least they thought they had technical problems when they retained me. I frequently found, once on site, that the problems did have a technical component but also had organizational, personal, and training components.

My primary approach to that problem solving and life in general is:
- nothing is as it first seems, nor as it seems the 2nd and 3rd time you look
- If you think you know the answer you will not learn the question
- The way you frame the question determines the probable answers you receive
- There is always someone that knows the real question and several people will have good answers IF you listen
- Dogma and firmly held beliefs and ideas inhibits acquisition of better ideas
- More talk and more questions seldom cause problems

Thus - this extended discussion

I am convinced that Adagio is the answer to my question but I do want to try to justify that answer and respond to intense scrutiny of my initial assumptions (that frame my question) and of my proposed answer.

I am perfectly willing to listen to all suggestions and opinions.
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Old 03-03-2015, 14:25   #161
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

here is the other message I wanted to appear here.

The Orana Maestro looks like a nice option. I do have a couple questions.

- I am slightly, and sometimes intensely, claustrophobic, and just looking at the pictures of the owner cabin gave me the creeps. It appears there are only two small opening hatches. How does it work in the hot sticky tropics without the AirCon on?

The suggested Lagoon 440 also looks interesting.

Considering that we do not plan to pay more than $400,000 for Adagio, I have a general question about suggested production boats in the $420,000 - $535,000 range. What advantage will we experience if we were to spend that much money for a boat with less equipment than recently installed on Adagio? All the suggested boats would need $15,000 - $25,000 in additions to bring them up to the Adagio living and sailing experience (Washer/Dryer, watermaker, spinnaker, Gennaker...etc).

It seems to me that the only advantage is a more assured resale value at some point in the future.

What other advantage would be gained from buying a conventional, run-of-the mill, just like every other charter boat, catamaran?
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Old 03-03-2015, 14:39   #162
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Hmmm. Given your serious considerations of these other boats, and the reasons given for those considerations, my opinion has changed.

I don't think Adagio is the boat you think it is, or will be happy with.

Mark
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Old 03-03-2015, 15:11   #163
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Re Orana Maestro ventilation - you won't feel claustrophobic as the sleeping quarters area is considerably larger than most. I think FP may have moved away from this design because the charter industry likes cabins to be more even so that when several couples are on board there don't have to debate who gets the "special" accomodations.
There is a full size hatch over the foot of the bed which usually provides more than adequate ventilation. On occassion we have reversed the sleeping position so that our upper bodies are under the hatch area. In tropical conditions a fan running can also add comfort with little power draw.
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Old 03-03-2015, 15:11   #164
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
It seems to me that the only advantage is a more assured resale value at some point in the future.
I think this is correct.

Quote:
What other advantage would be gained from buying a conventional, run-of-the mill, just like every other charter boat, catamaran?
None.

Put all the Lagoons, FPs, and Leopards into the "just like all the rest" basket - because they do make up the vast majority of cruising cats. Others are less conventional which would include the board boats that are in a separate sailing performance class, which Adagio is closer to, if not a card carrying member.

So, one benefit of Adagio that you have already recognized is that you won't have a "conventional, run-of-the mill, just like every other charter boat, catamaran." You will be the only one in all your anchorages, if that is of value to you.

I'll offer a separate data point on resale value to counter the "you will always lose money" on resale argument: In my routine insurance survey in fall 2013, my boat was valued at US$80K higher than what I paid for it in 2006. Of course, I put way more into it since then just to maintain it, but it did not depreciate and did better than many US homes in that time frame.

Dave
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Old 03-03-2015, 17:32   #165
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

"I'll offer a separate data point on resale value to counter the "you will always lose money" on resale argument: In my routine insurance survey in fall 2013, my boat was valued at US$80K higher than what I paid for it in 2006. Of course, I put way more into it since then just to maintain it, but it did not depreciate and did better than many US homes in that time frame"

It would have to APPRECIATE 15.9% just to be even with inflation!
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