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Old 26-05-2012, 22:33   #16
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

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Originally Posted by simonmd View Post
This is almost a retorical question as I dare say it's all down to fashion etc but why do modern designs like Lagoon, Fountaine Pajot, etc. have such small and uncomfortable saloons?

By this I mean, a 40 ft cat, that's build to take 8 people, bearly has seating inside for them and certainly not enough room to 'lounge around' in comfort. It's not space so much as my MUCH smaller 30ft Cat has proved, with my boat having an ample sized U shape sofa/dining area that a couple of people can lay on in supreme comfort with feet up while reading, watching tv, etc. but in a much larger and grander modern design like a Lagoon 380/400, etc. you can't!

Look at older designes like the Dean 365 or the rare Catalac 12m and you have TONS of main saloon space, modern boats just seem to cater for sleeping and outside accomodation with no thought for a family or other larger party being stuck inside on a rainy day.

The reason im looking and asking the question is that a friend of mine has been converted to cats by being on my little 900 and wants me to help him buy a nearly new model with a budget of upto 200k. Now, at that money we're falling over all sorts of 5 year old or less Lagoon 380's and FP 41's etc. but none seem to be as well layed out as my 18 year old 9 meter boat! Seems crazy to me.

If anyone would care to recommend a boat that does fit this criteria, ie nice large u shaped sofa area that can be used for lounging instead of just sitting upright and that is within 10 years old and costs no more than 200k, id be gratefull.
We have looked at a number of new cats and space is mportant to us as we sail and live on our boat full time. Space is space ... and you have to decide where it counts. When looking at space, we liked our Lagoon 440 for the huge saloon space and having an owner version meant huge hull space and bathroom etc on the side we 'live in'. However, the heads on the Guests side are just too small for comfort (the most dissapointing aspect of our boat). There will always be compromise.

We have friends sailing up through the Caribbean currently on a 'charter version' Lagoon 440 with thier kids (Husband, wife and 3 kids).If you were interested, you could probably do a sweet deal with him as he is selling at the end of this year to return to his business in SA.
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Old 31-05-2012, 09:43   #17
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

Perhaps you should look at a custom catamaran instead of a production boat. My 42' catamaran was recently launched and it has a large saloon and a covered cockpit. It was built by an Australian designer/builder, Nigel Roberts, here in the Philippines for a cost, so far, of around $75K. Yes, the galley is in the port hull. The catamaran is optimized for living aboard and not for racing.
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Old 31-05-2012, 12:15   #18
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

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...It was built by an Australian designer/builder, Nigel Roberts, here in the Philippines for a cost, so far, of around $75K. Yes, the galley is in the port hull. The catamaran is optimized for living aboard and not for racing.
What's the completed cost expected to be?
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Old 31-05-2012, 17:01   #19
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

Would it be timber construction for those sort of dollars?

I looked into a cat being built in the Phillipines a few years back, however I could not guarantee the products that they were using. You can order A1 Marine Grade Plywood and when it arrives it might have A1 Marine Grade ply stamped on the side, however it may be D-Grade marine ply - I'd really have no idea what I was getting.
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Old 31-05-2012, 17:24   #20
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

I would like to see a berth that can be converted into more saloon space during the daytime. If you just have an air mattress, I can blow it up at the end of each day. It just seems like there is a lot of space there that could be used better, or allow for a simplier and smaller boat with the same level of comfort.
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Old 31-05-2012, 17:54   #21
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

Ok, I have to backtrack on my original statement a bit. Seems that the designers have been listening and brand new models seem to be better packaged.

I'm currently stuck in Almerimar S Spain due to the weather being against us but while i've been here have had the oportunity to be show arround two new boats by their proud owners. One a 9 month old Fountaine Pajot Lipari 41 and the other a brand spanking new Lagoon 400 that the owner is trying to get back to Turkey.

Both these boats have 'L' shaped sofas instead of curved or semi circular ones like their previous models had and what a difference I can tell you. My 1st mate and I were invited to dinner aboard the FP 41 tonight and I can tell you the cockpit and interior saloon is very nice indeed considering it has the nav station and decent sized galley up top as well. Sure, still not quite the lounging room my older design gives me but with the addition of a foot stool, two could relax in total comfort while 'slobed' in front of the tv. In fact another couple who joined us for dinner own a Lagoon 380 and they commented on what a vast improvement the straight L shape sofa was compared with their curved design.

Now, all i've got to do is persuade my friend to by one of those........
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Old 01-06-2012, 23:21   #22
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

Many of new designs do in fact have excellent large saloons.

eg FP salina 48 Salina 48 Evolution catamaran layouts | Fountaine Pajot | Multihull Solutions

FF46 has a 6m x 4m saloon
Designs - FreeFlow 46

The Dazcat SO47 also Dazcat Southern Ocean 47, 15m performance cruising catamaran

http://www.dazcat.co.uk/Dazcat_SO47_files/SO47.pdf
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:17   #23
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

Yes, the Salena 48 is lovely for sure (as you'd hope in a 48ft cat) but the Dazcat still has the rediculous semi circular sofa and table. Fine for eating but as soon as you want to kick back and relax, useless.



How on earth would you use that as a sea berth for a nap on a long passage for example? I know she no doubt has very comfy cabins but many couples like to remain up top when one needs a nap so they are easy to wake and on hand if needed.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:29   #24
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

I can't count how many snoozes I've enjoyed in my salon. I agree, it only makes sense to look for function over style and it's about time we see 'L' shaped sofas.

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Now, all i've got to do is persuade my friend to by one of those........
The 'friend' in your boat advertisement photos? Simon, you are truly a very lucky man!! Link..
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:32   #25
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

There seems to be a couple of common responses here:
Galley Down - kid free, good working space in heavy weather, limited range of spills, debris, sharp knives!
Cockpit v Cabin Space - Readily solved by a hard top for the cockpit with screens for sun, rain and into wind crew protection. That chill draft seems to search out all corners.
Stand-by Crew rest place - U shaped or long settee where skipper can relax during the day, nod off even, but still be available for advice when needed.
Genuine Single handing, ideally without leaving the cockpit. (Rear Mast?) and more thought to the routing of running lines. Tacking a CAT should not require the 'passengers' to change sides.

Even my old Prout only achieved 3 out of the four and was always a draughty cockpit for helm and off-duty crew so 2.5/4. I'd planned windscreens, (old race car style), but hate to see the air-brake full width screens on some boats.
Single handing was reasonable, Galley down was great, standing at the worktop, stove was same level as sitting in the saloon, cabin area was excellent with seating for ten to dine at window level, but seating in the cockpit was limited to four at most, and that was too many tacking down Southampton Water in a blow.
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Old 02-06-2012, 20:59   #26
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

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Originally Posted by simonmd View Post
Yes, the Salena 48 is lovely for sure (as you'd hope in a 48ft cat) but the Dazcat still has the rediculous semi circular sofa and table. Fine for eating but as soon as you want to kick back and relax, useless.



How on earth would you use that as a sea berth for a nap on a long passage for example? I know she no doubt has very comfy cabins but many couples like to remain up top when one needs a nap so they are easy to wake and on hand if needed.
Agreed on the example shown in the drawing.

With Dazcat the interior would be custom to your own requirements. regardless a large saloon.
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Old 02-06-2012, 21:35   #27
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

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Our hull length to width ratio is 1 : 12.5 but we build out the hull 450 mm above the waterline to get the needed inside space, this is possible because the weight is reasonable low on this cat see picture
Whahh?? Your boat is over twelve times wider than it is long? If your boat isn't 1.25 times longer than its width, that's some strange boat.
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Old 02-06-2012, 21:46   #28
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

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Whahh?? Your boat is over twelve times wider than it is long? If your boat isn't 1.25 times longer than its width, that's some strange boat.
Mark,

With cats a ratio of 12.5 to 1 means a fairly fast cruising cat compared with the common charter brands being around 10:1 whilst racing cats would be 14 to 16:1.

Talking about the individual hull ratios here. 16:1 is very slender and little load carrying compared with a slower vessel with load carrying at 10;1.

A lot of designers have a slender hulls for efficient sailing and widen out the hulls above waterline as Fascat indicates to give more space for accomodation.

Overall lenght/width is another issue.

cheers
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Old 02-06-2012, 22:12   #29
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
There seems to be a couple of common responses here:
Galley Down - kid free, good working space in heavy weather, limited range of spills, debris, sharp knives!
Cockpit v Cabin Space - Readily solved by a hard top for the cockpit with screens for sun, rain and into wind crew protection. That chill draft seems to search out all corners.
Stand-by Crew rest place - U shaped or long settee where skipper can relax during the day, nod off even, but still be available for advice when needed.
Genuine Single handing, ideally without leaving the cockpit. (Rear Mast?) and more thought to the routing of running lines. Tacking a CAT should not require the 'passengers' to change sides.

Even my old Prout only achieved 3 out of the four and was always a draughty cockpit for helm and off-duty crew so 2.5/4. I'd planned windscreens, (old race car style), but hate to see the air-brake full width screens on some boats.
Single handing was reasonable, Galley down was great, standing at the worktop, stove was same level as sitting in the saloon, cabin area was excellent with seating for ten to dine at window level, but seating in the cockpit was limited to four at most, and that was too many tacking down Southampton Water in a blow.
Here is an example of a modern 46ft design (FF46) that covers all your concerns.

Completely protetected helm, can get rid of your wet weather gear, and queen size day bed, again weather protected.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:34   #30
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Re: Why do Modern Designs Seem to Have Really Small Saloons?

Nice, but it's as well to dress for the weather just in case of mob or deck work. It's not a good idea to put things off 'till later because the wet gears stowed away.
And the aerodynamic drag for that windscreen is awful. I hate them. If they have to be built in make them shallow sloped and add roof lights below to get more light in the cabin.
A hard roof? Absolutely every time because if it isn't solar radiation doing your skin in it's wet rot.
Remote auto-pilot controls allow a good watch from the saloon (on Cats) if you really feel the need to be indoors.
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