Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

[transmitterdan]

I think there are multiple and varied reasons for not wanting to sail at night. For example, many age related vision problems become significantly worse at night. Perhaps more significantly we live our lives as if the dark is a "bad thing". Every year more and more cities are as bright at night as during the day. We are conditioned from an early age to fear a dark alley at night. All these things conspire to make night more stressful than the day. And long passages add to the stress. As with most things one solution is to just go and do it even if you don't like the idea. Once done the next time will be easier and before long even enjoyable. When I tell people that my wife and I love to scuba dive at night they look at us like we have tree limbs growing out of our heads.

Night sailing has a lot of advantages such as no need of sunscreen or air conditioning. Generally there is less chance of collision owing to reduced traffic. And it means you can enjoy more anchorages during the day. In many places fair winds will be easier to exploit by sailing at night.

But to the original question, I don't think there is a significant difference in the proportion of mono or multi hull boats motoring without sails. Both groups do it a lot but not anywhere close to 100% of the time.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by BadKitty

I don't motor 100% of the time, very little as a matter of fact.
Question - I watch monos at anchor swaying back and forth - why is that?

Nice one.

Fortunately, we're not swaying here nearly as much as when we were on the Spanish coast. That definitely got ugly at times. Off the Guernsey coast... really ugly sway. Off St. Peter Port, Guernsey, even the catamarans left the rocky rolly anchorage. I stayed... It was gross.

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

How big does a cat have to be to include a walkaround queen berth?

The only one I'm aware of is something like a 46' Endeavor, but to do that, the master isn't down in the hulls.

-Chris

Leopard 43.

[jmschmidt]

There several reasons, one of which you stated, many sailors don't really like the way they sail (I'm one of those). Others are: Many people who charter cats in places like Tahiti (Europeans, by my observation) don't really like or know how to sail, especially the women. I've helped a few off the reefs. The charter companies usually prove free fuel for sailing cats, no so for power cats. That's why I mostly motor them when I charter. It's a big hassle to hoist, trim and douse sails when your cat is filled with non-sailor guests. For sure there are probably more reasons.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

A constructive answer/contribution would be more appreciated. The same for SimonV.

Thanks

Ken

How about a sensible, constructive thread?

Anyway YOU'RE the one who says cats motor 100% of the time. I never knew that until I read YOUR opening post.

So why even ask how a particular cat' sails? You already know the answer - like all cat's it motors 100% of the time.

Just realised, we have nearly 25,000 miles logged, and about 1000 engine hours. So we motor at an average of 25 knots! Given that a fair number of the engine hours is spent anchoring etc, we must be motoring at around 30 knots on passage! Pretty impressive for a 44 foot boat with 20 hp outboards!

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Yeah, cat's just can't sail to windward.

04-07-2015, 13:59	#157
Bulawayo Senior Cruiser Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe Boat: V45 Posts: 1,352	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% Originally Posted by jmschmidt There several reasons, one of which you stated, many sailors don't really like the way they sail (I'm one of those). Others are: Many people who charter cats in places like Tahiti (Europeans, by my observation) don't really like or know how to sail, especially the women. I've helped a few off the reefs. The charter companies usually prove free fuel for sailing cats, no so for power cats. That's why I mostly motor them when I charter. It's a big hassle to hoist, trim and douse sails when your cat is filled with non-sailor guests. For sure there are probably more reasons. Hi JMSchmidt - I'm trying to understand your posting? You dont like the way cats sail? You mean you dont like that catamarans can be quick? That they sail fairly flat? That its possible to eat and make hot drinks when the weather is not so good? That they usually have good sized cockpits compared to the equivalent sized monohull? Or do you mean you dont like that a cat will usually keep moving with minimal breeze? Or maybe you dont like the dead down wind motion as they generally do not yaw like a mono-hull? Or is that you can go to your bed and not have to use a lee-cloth? Possibly you can explain what you dont like and also why do you keep chartering them if you dont like the way they sail? If you have non-sailing guests why dont you show them the benefits of sailing? That can be on a mono-hull or on a cat. There is nothing wrong with mono-hulls if that is what you prefer but don't go round knocking catamarans - especially when you seem to prefer chartering them. Seems rather odd.....

04-07-2015, 14:23	#158
Cruisingoneday Registered User Join Date: May 2011 Boat: Acapulco 40 Posts: 32	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% It Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing )88.8b x I I I chibihihuvi huhivbuvhh bin I in. Hi. Bob. Vjboibjvjvvhb qs. Onoñgjh jjjbnnbj💌💌

04-07-2015, 16:11	#159
D&D Marine Service Provider   Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Blue Mountains, Australia Boat: now skippering Syd Harbour charters Posts: 1,557	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% Originally Posted by weavis Actually, it was a little offensive. You need to work on your sense of humour and your tactics for retaliation when confronted about something. You didnt shine bright in the funny posts section. We return only to express sincere regret to any/all we offended. We certainly did not intend or expect a purely (and, we thought, obviously) rhetorical question -- It was actually the 'classic' example used back in the Captain's days in law school -- would offend. It seems we were wrong. It also seems we need to check our sense of humour to ensure we do not offend in the joke thread. Wishing you all safe sailing...or, for you cat sailors, safe motoring...

04-07-2015, 16:16	#160
colemj Registered User   Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Presently on US East Coast Boat: Manta 40 "Reach" Posts: 10,108 Images: 12	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% Originally Posted by Cruisingoneday It Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing )88.8b x I I I chibihihuvi huhivbuvhh bin I in. Hi. Bob. Vjboibjvjvvhb qs. Onoñgjh jjjbnnbj💌💌 Without a doubt, this is the most sensible post on this thread. Maybe on the entire forum. If it is OK with you, I would like to borrow your sub-phrase "chibihihuvi huhivbuvhh bin". I think I will find it handy in the future here… Mark __________________ www.svreach.com You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.

04-07-2015, 16:22	#161
colemj Registered User   Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Presently on US East Coast Boat: Manta 40 "Reach" Posts: 10,108 Images: 12	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% Originally Posted by D&D We return only to express sincere regret to any/all we offended. We certainly did not intend or expect a purely (and, we thought, obviously) rhetorical question -- It was actually the 'classic' example used back in the Captain's days in law school -- would offend. It seems we were wrong. It also seems we need to check our sense of humour to ensure we do not offend in the joke thread. Wishing you all safe sailing...or, for you cat sailors, safe motoring... This isn't the joke thread? Dang, I gotta get better glasses. BTW, I think most people's sensitivities are such that they saw your extremely common colloquial expression as the classic use example it has always been. It is difficult to believe anyone would interpret it personally or else-wise - but there you go. Mark __________________ www.svreach.com You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.

04-07-2015, 16:47	#162
UNCIVILIZED Registered User   Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind. Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST! Posts: 5,629	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% If anyone genuinely wants to know the answer to this question, it is well explained & pretty much answered in this article Considerations for Seaworthiness And to cut to the important bits of it: If we apply the same treatment to the underwater shape and keel of a multihull by superimposing the results of tank testing on the boat, in the same way as we did for the sails in Fig 6, we find that the effect of drag of the keel and the hulls on the pointing ability is as follows: 25% decrease in keel efficiency = total loss in tacking angle of 5 degrees. Double hull weight = total loss in tacking angle of 6 degrees. if we include the lift to drag factors of the sails: 16% decrease in sail area = total loss in tacking angle of 4 degrees. 35% increase in aerodynamic parasitic drag = total loss in tacking angle of 6 degrees. The total of all these factors is a loss in tacking angle of 21 degrees. If we compare an open bridgedeck cat of type 6 to an older type of multihull, this is exactly the sort of difference in pointing ability we observe. When compared to a design of type 1 or4 the modern multihull is much more streamlined, about half the weight, has an efficient keel, wide width for high stability and sail carrying power, and larger rig. All these features combine together to give a windward performance better than any equivalent sized monohull. Since the linked article was penned, cat's have only gotten (a LOT) fatter, & (FAR) higher in terms of windage. And most of their crap performance is common sense. ~ In a nutshell... - Horrid; hull, keel, & rudder shapes x2 - Crap rig designs, set up purely for convenience, sans nods to performance. - Weight 2x that of any monohull of the same length. - More windage, & drag than a 1,500sqft Ranch Style house. - Owners who don't know hot to, & or give a rat's ass as to the basics of proper sailing (techniques & gear). Most of which, it seems, that the majority of cruising cat owners understand (to some degree), but are aghast at even the thought of giving up even some of said "features". Siting the loss of a few luxury amenities which 99% of the world's population will never have. __________________ The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.

04-07-2015, 17:16	#163
weavis Moderator Emeritus   Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Seville London Eastbourne Posts: 13,406	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% Originally Posted by colemj This isn't the joke thread? Dang, I gotta get better glasses. BTW, I think most people's sensitivities are such that they saw your extremely common colloquial expression as the classic use example it has always been. It is difficult to believe anyone would interpret it personally or else-wise - but there you go. Mark To paraphrase you with a slight adjustment, "Please dont tell me what I think". I've never heard the "colloquial" expression before. I guess the 4 people who commented to me privately had never heard it either. In any event, several of us dumb asses found it a little out of place. Sometimes its hard to please anybody never mind everybody. It takes time to work out the personality of a thread opener, and like in this thread, the title is a little ....... i cant even think of a phrase for it, blurted observational? Again to paraphrase you "its difficult to believe anyone would interpret it Literally...." Its a non starter as a title and yet people accepted what it was and responded....... I have always held you in the highest regard for your Catamaran knowledge and general understanding of seamanship. Sometimes I have to filter out the caustic retorts and sharp snipes and watch in awe at the fights that develop between you and other professionals. Occasionally they are so outrageous that I curl up laughing at the sheer sarcasm and sometimes I wince at the put downs. It does not take away from the respect for abilities I perceive in you, but is uncomfortable at times when it jabs at others. I guess Im saying here that its fine to be ourselves, for that is who we are. It is not so fine to be unkind in general and make assumptions that people are as smart as we are, I obviously failed your assumption. Id like to say Im sorry for being a dumbass in your eyes, but in reality I dont give a stuff. Im still going to read your comments for the wisdom they hold at times in relation to sailing and Catamarans, I hope you can forgive me for that. Im still going to recommend others to read those comments of yours. Im also going to hope that others look past the caustic presentation and see the helpful and informed person you are. I can go on in this vein forever. It gets very annoying after a while. Im a firm follower of Napoleon Bonapartes observations on life. If situations and relationships cannot be mended, he stated: "Never stand in the way of an enemy when he is making a mistake." I will put myself out on a limb and assume you are smarter than the average bear and understand what Im saying. And if you dont, or dont want to, I guess I will not have to give a stuff about that either....... __________________ - Never test how deep the water is with both feet - 10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice. Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.

04-07-2015, 17:55	#164
weavis Moderator Emeritus   Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Seville London Eastbourne Posts: 13,406	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% Im almost back to the dock. Ive had the engine on for the past 2.3 hours. Its a Tri. Water is flat and wind is absent. Nephew is holding the tiller and Im cooking and writing med reports and answering posts. Im disappointed. Its July and time for me to put up the sails. Im sure they need airing and wind in them or something to shake out the wrinkles from last July.. if it goes on like this, I might just have to send them straight to the cleaners. I was in Holland a few weeks ago, and was amazed how much room there is on boats with no Masts..........no rigging to get in the way or lines to trip over. Such a clever idea. I think I would miss sailing though. Eventually when time and circumstance come together and the sails go up and get trimmed, the engine is switched off and the boat surges forward, there is nothing like it. After 15 minutes when it all has settled into the rythm and motion, a sense of belonging and sharing comes over me and a relaxation of spirit that little else manages. Its not the speed, although a fair return on the wind is appreciated, Its not whether its cold or hot, although warm is nice, its more the appreciation for life and sharing the water. Whether miles offshore or passing quaint fisherman cottages in an estuary, there is this sense of being part of earth, a special part. I never felt this in a fast motorboat. I missed not sailing in tonight. Its just the way it is. I hope I never get too busy to not enjoy sailing. __________________ - Never test how deep the water is with both feet - 10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice. Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.

04-07-2015, 17:55	#165
blackcrow cruiser Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 30	Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100% I do not know for the rest of the world but last summer I was in Croatia for almost three months, I also barely saw any catamaran sailing, actually I still remember one time there was Mistral or how they say locally Maestral. Boats coming down that "canal", between shore an those islands before Dubrovnik. there were 5 boats, 4 catamarans and one monohull, only monohull were sailing all 4 catamarans were on motor, and as far as I can recall three had Australian and one German flag, so no chartered boats.

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

There several reasons, one of which you stated, many sailors don't really like the way they sail (I'm one of those). Others are: Many people who charter cats in places like Tahiti (Europeans, by my observation) don't really like or know how to sail, especially the women. I've helped a few off the reefs. The charter companies usually prove free fuel for sailing cats, no so for power cats. That's why I mostly motor them when I charter. It's a big hassle to hoist, trim and douse sails when your cat is filled with non-sailor guests. For sure there are probably more reasons.

Hi JMSchmidt - I'm trying to understand your posting? You dont like the way cats sail?
You mean you dont like that catamarans can be quick? That they sail fairly flat? That its possible to eat and make hot drinks when the weather is not so good? That they usually have good sized cockpits compared to the equivalent sized monohull? Or do you mean you dont like that a cat will usually keep moving with minimal breeze? Or maybe you dont like the dead down wind motion as they generally do not yaw like a mono-hull? Or is that you can go to your bed and not have to use a lee-cloth?
Possibly you can explain what you dont like and also why do you keep chartering them if you dont like the way they sail? If you have non-sailing guests why dont you show them the benefits of sailing? That can be on a mono-hull or on a cat. There is nothing wrong with mono-hulls if that is what you prefer but don't go round knocking catamarans - especially when you seem to prefer chartering them. Seems rather odd.....

[Cruisingoneday]

It


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing )88.8b x I I I chibihihuvi huhivbuvhh bin I in. Hi. Bob. Vjboibjvjvvhb qs. Onoñgjh jjjbnnbj💌💌

[D&D]

Originally Posted by weavis

Actually, it was a little offensive. You need to work on your sense of humour and your tactics for retaliation when confronted about something. You didnt shine bright in the funny posts section.

We return only to express sincere regret to any/all we offended.

We certainly did not intend or expect a purely (and, we thought, obviously) rhetorical question -- It was actually the 'classic' example used back in the Captain's days in law school -- would offend. It seems we were wrong.

It also seems we need to check our sense of humour to ensure we do not offend in the joke thread.

Wishing you all safe sailing...or, for you cat sailors, safe motoring...

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Cruisingoneday

It

Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing )88.8b x I I I chibihihuvi huhivbuvhh bin I in. Hi. Bob. Vjboibjvjvvhb qs. Onoñgjh jjjbnnbj💌💌

Without a doubt, this is the most sensible post on this thread. Maybe on the entire forum.

If it is OK with you, I would like to borrow your sub-phrase "chibihihuvi huhivbuvhh bin". I think I will find it handy in the future here…

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by D&D

We return only to express sincere regret to any/all we offended.

We certainly did not intend or expect a purely (and, we thought, obviously) rhetorical question -- It was actually the 'classic' example used back in the Captain's days in law school -- would offend. It seems we were wrong.

It also seems we need to check our sense of humour to ensure we do not offend in the joke thread.

Wishing you all safe sailing...or, for you cat sailors, safe motoring...

This isn't the joke thread? Dang, I gotta get better glasses.

BTW, I think most people's sensitivities are such that they saw your extremely common colloquial expression as the classic use example it has always been. It is difficult to believe anyone would interpret it personally or else-wise - but there you go.

Mark

[UNCIVILIZED]

If anyone genuinely wants to know the answer to this question, it is well explained & pretty much answered in this article Considerations for Seaworthiness
And to cut to the important bits of it:

If we apply the same treatment to the underwater shape and keel of a multihull by superimposing the results of tank testing on the boat, in the same way as we did for the sails in Fig 6, we find that the effect of drag of the keel and the hulls on the pointing ability is as follows:

• 25% decrease in keel efficiency = total loss in tacking angle of 5 degrees.
• Double hull weight = total loss in tacking angle of 6 degrees.

if we include the lift to drag factors of the sails:

• 16% decrease in sail area = total loss in tacking angle of 4 degrees.
• 35% increase in aerodynamic parasitic drag = total loss in tacking angle of 6 degrees.

The total of all these factors is a loss in tacking angle of 21 degrees.

If we compare an open bridgedeck cat of type 6 to an older type of multihull, this is exactly the sort of difference in pointing ability we observe.
When compared to a design of type 1 or4 the modern multihull is much more streamlined, about half the weight, has an efficient keel, wide width for high stability and sail carrying power, and larger rig. All these features combine together to give a windward performance better than any equivalent sized monohull.


Since the linked article was penned, cat's have only gotten (a LOT) fatter, & (FAR) higher in terms of windage. And most of their crap performance is common sense. ~ In a nutshell...
- Horrid; hull, keel, & rudder shapes x2
- Crap rig designs, set up purely for convenience, sans nods to performance.
- Weight 2x that of any monohull of the same length.
- More windage, & drag than a 1,500sqft Ranch Style house.
- Owners who don't know hot to, & or give a rat's ass as to the basics of proper sailing (techniques & gear).

Most of which, it seems, that the majority of cruising cat owners understand (to some degree), but are aghast at even the thought of giving up even some of said "features". Siting the loss of a few luxury amenities which 99% of the world's population will never have.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by colemj

This isn't the joke thread? Dang, I gotta get better glasses.

BTW, I think most people's sensitivities are such that they saw your extremely common colloquial expression as the classic use example it has always been. It is difficult to believe anyone would interpret it personally or else-wise - but there you go.

Mark

To paraphrase you with a slight adjustment, "Please dont tell me what I think".

I've never heard the "colloquial" expression before. I guess the 4 people who commented to me privately had never heard it either. In any event, several of us dumb asses found it a little out of place.

Sometimes its hard to please anybody never mind everybody.

It takes time to work out the personality of a thread opener, and like in this thread, the title is a little ....... i cant even think of a phrase for it, blurted observational?

Again to paraphrase you "its difficult to believe anyone would interpret it Literally...." Its a non starter as a title and yet people accepted what it was and responded.......

I have always held you in the highest regard for your Catamaran knowledge and general understanding of seamanship. Sometimes I have to filter out the caustic retorts and sharp snipes and watch in awe at the fights that develop between you and other professionals. Occasionally they are so outrageous that I curl up laughing at the sheer sarcasm and sometimes I wince at the put downs. It does not take away from the respect for abilities I perceive in you, but is uncomfortable at times when it jabs at others.

I guess Im saying here that its fine to be ourselves, for that is who we are. It is not so fine to be unkind in general and make assumptions that people are as smart as we are, I obviously failed your assumption. Id like to say Im sorry for being a dumbass in your eyes, but in reality I dont give a stuff.

Im still going to read your comments for the wisdom they hold at times in relation to sailing and Catamarans, I hope you can forgive me for that. Im still going to recommend others to read those comments of yours.

Im also going to hope that others look past the caustic presentation and see the helpful and informed person you are.

I can go on in this vein forever. It gets very annoying after a while.

Im a firm follower of Napoleon Bonapartes observations on life. If situations and relationships cannot be mended, he stated:

"Never stand in the way of an enemy when he is making a mistake."

I will put myself out on a limb and assume you are smarter than the average bear and understand what Im saying.

And if you dont, or dont want to, I guess I will not have to give a stuff about that either.......

[weavis]

Im almost back to the dock. Ive had the engine on for the past 2.3 hours. Its a Tri. Water is flat and wind is absent. Nephew is holding the tiller and Im cooking and writing med reports and answering posts.

Im disappointed. Its July and time for me to put up the sails. Im sure they need airing and wind in them or something to shake out the wrinkles from last July.. if it goes on like this, I might just have to send them straight to the cleaners.

I was in Holland a few weeks ago, and was amazed how much room there is on boats with no Masts..........no rigging to get in the way or lines to trip over. Such a clever idea.

I think I would miss sailing though. Eventually when time and circumstance come together and the sails go up and get trimmed, the engine is switched off and the boat surges forward, there is nothing like it. After 15 minutes when it all has settled into the rythm and motion, a sense of belonging and sharing comes over me and a relaxation of spirit that little else manages. Its not the speed, although a fair return on the wind is appreciated, Its not whether its cold or hot, although warm is nice, its more the appreciation for life and sharing the water. Whether miles offshore or passing quaint fisherman cottages in an estuary, there is this sense of being part of earth, a special part. I never felt this in a fast motorboat.

I missed not sailing in tonight. Its just the way it is. I hope I never get too busy to not enjoy sailing.

[blackcrow]

I do not know for the rest of the world but last summer I was in Croatia for almost three months, I also barely saw any catamaran sailing, actually I still remember one time there was Mistral or how they say locally Maestral. Boats coming down that "canal", between shore an those islands before Dubrovnik. there were 5 boats, 4 catamarans and one monohull, only monohull were sailing all 4 catamarans were on motor, and as far as I can recall three had Australian and one German flag, so no chartered boats.