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Old 07-02-2016, 13:45   #931
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

There you go - again with the facts and actual experience, you should know by now that that isn't as important as conjecture and what someone on the internet found out third hand from someone else.

At least Kenomac acknowledges limited experience on multis, Polux who will be along in a minute to correct us all, has absolutely none.
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Old 07-02-2016, 15:06   #932
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Certainly easy to operate, but then... Why the sailing rig?

I'd really like to hear from a few multi owners. Hopefully, all of them haven't been offended by my post. I certainly didn't mean it to be that way.

Mrs. Kenomac (Pammymac) also wants to know why?
I think someone already gave a good answer - they are charter boat customers. Motoring is easier, especially when you're not that familiar with the boat and maybe only traveling a short distance.

The biggest reason I would motor and not bother putting up sails, is if I'm changing direction a lot. Like in the IntraCoastal Waterway, on the east coast of USA. However, I'll fly my jib often, to assist motoring, just because it's so easy to furl in and out.

The main sail is another story though. More trouble than it's worth, unless transiting a significant distance.
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Old 07-02-2016, 18:12   #933
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Well geez Ken, you said it was directly on the nose, but it sure doesn't look like it. Looks more like it was on the beam, or just forward of it.


We encountered similar conditions crossing to Vanuatu. For 3 days, the wind didn't drop below 35 knots. one day it didn't drop below 40. Peak we recorded was 48 knots.


At about 70 - 80 degrees true.


We didn't need to wear weather gear">foul weather gear, because in our protected cockpit we didn't get wet. We cooked, ate hot meals, made coffee, could put our cups on the table without them spilling.


We DIDN'T need to run our engines.


I realise now I should have taken video, but at the time it really didn't seem a big enough deal to warrant it.
The video will follow in a couple of days when I have time. Some of us have a job.
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Old 07-02-2016, 18:22   #934
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Do all Oysters have to run their motors in order to maintain steerage?


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Old 08-02-2016, 13:16   #935
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Taming the Powerful Sail Plans on Modern Catamarans

I found this article interesting,...from Cruising World magazine:

Atlantic 47 MastFoil | Cruising World
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
Billy Black][/B] The Atlantic 47 MastFoil is longtime multihull designer Chris White’s solution to the challenge of taming the powerful sail plans on modern catamarans. Rather than a huge mainsail with full battens, he’s opted for a split rig with what are essentially a pair of roller-furling jibs.

Take a look at the most new catamarans, and what do you see? Well, yes, they’re all big, powerful, state-of-the-art multihulls. But take a look at those sail plans, specifically the mains. They spread a lot of canvas, and somewhere, sometime, on a black night, those sails will need reefing.

I’m not sure about you, but my mouth gets a little cottony just thinking about what that might entail.

Veteran yacht designer Chris White has given this matter a lot of thought too. Beyond merely pondering the issue of large mainsails on modern cats, he’s also done something tangible about them. His well-considered solution is called the MastFoil rig, and last autumn at the sailboat show in Annapolis, he unveiled it aboard his Atlantic 47 cat.

Before we delve into the Atlantic 47 MastFoil, a word or two about its creator. With regard to the evolution of the modern multihull, said Boat of the Year judge Tim Murphy, “In the 1970s and 1980s there were all these mad geniuses — Jim Brown, Lock Crowther, Walter Green, Dick Newick — who all had cult followings. Chris White is another one of those guys. He’s an iconoclast, he sort of challenges people’s notions about what a boat should be, how it should function.”

Aboard his Atlantic series of cats, some 50 of which have been built by a series of builders since 1985, the distinguishing feature is something White pioneered: the mid-ship cockpit/aft pilothouse configuration. (The A47 and its sister ships are now produced by Alwoplast in Chile, and the fit and finish of the vacuum-bagged, foam-cored construction is uniformly excellent.)Many designers and builders have since appropriated this revolutionary idea — which on the Atlantic cats puts the wheel and engine controls within easy reach of the front-and-center helmsman — and they should cut a check to White every time they employ it. But that’s a topic for a different day.

Now White has shifted his gaze aloft, to the challenges of designing a simple, safe, efficient rig with a sail plan that can be instantly depowered or even reefed or furled on any point of sail, even downwind in a gale. Basically, he’s eliminated the power plant that drives most modern cats: the heavy, tall, fully battened, not very efficient mainsail.

Here’s his take on what has replaced it: “The soft sails used with the MastFoil rig are roller-furling jibs set up on booms to permit easy self-tacking and improved shape when sailing off the wind. The simply supported (robust head stay and two shrouds — no spreaders, lower shrouds or running backstays) carbon-fiber masts incorporate a streamlined wing that can generate substantial driving power despite its relatively small ‘sail’ area. This wing power can be easily turned on and off by control of the wing’s angle of attack, i.e., sheeting in or out.”

Our test sail on Chesapeake Bay was conducted, unfortunately, in light airs of around 5 knots. Still, the 47-footer was slippery through the water, topping off at speeds of 5.3 knots. The more fascinating part of the exercise was watching White put the rig through its paces, demonstrating how to feather or stall either or both of the wing masts for reefing or depowering. It was quite clear, even in the marginal conditions, that the concept is sound, efficient and very versatile.

The owner of Pounce, our test boat, is a licensed airplane pilot named Thom Dozier, who appreciated the aerodynamics involved with the innovative rig and had knocked off several 200-mile days on the voyage north from Chile. He also admitted to having “CWDS,” which he described as “Chris White Derangement Syndrome.” True, not everyone gets White’s take on cats. Those who do are rewarded with something special.
I think I have been accused of having some sort of deranged view of sailing rigs on cats as well ,...my aftmast rig.

I also took the mainsail off and replaced it with a pair of roller furling jibs, but I did it in a single mast configuration. Perhaps my mizzen sail is flap for the whole sail plan :?:
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Old 09-02-2016, 17:32   #936
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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The video will follow in a couple of days when I have time. Some of us have a job.
Like I promised, here's the video of us motoring directly into a constant 30 knot wind back in July 2015 on our way from Elba, Italy to Portisco, Sardinia. We are making 5 knots into 30 knots of wind. As we motored into the evening (it got dark maybe two hours later), the wind increased to a steady 35 knots and our forward speed slowed to three knots. The waves are maybe 6-8ft or so in the video and increased to maybe 10-12 ft later in the evening, but very choppy with a short period.


If you guys don't believe the wind speed, just pause the video as the camera passes the wind speed indicator each time.

Sorry, no video when the wind speed increased.... it was night time.... dark outside.

Ken
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Old 09-02-2016, 17:34   #937
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Er... where?


Ah, there it is! Wasn't there to start with.


Anyway, what's your point? We've motored into 35 knots. (With our puny 20hp outboards!)


We've sailed into it too, albeit not for long. (Squall.)
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Old 09-02-2016, 17:46   #938
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Er... where?


Anyway, what's your point? We've motored into 35 knots. We sailed into it once, albeit not for long. (Squall.)
The ONLY point is... Several Catamaran owners LIKE YOU demanded to see the video and called me out, so... I wasted an hour publishing it onto YouTube because I don't appreciate being accused by people LIKE YOU of being a liar.

It was basically an uneventful day motoring to make an airline flight. A day when I chose not to go forward when the wind increased to 35 knots to fuss with a stuck staysail furling mechanism.

You happy now?
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Old 09-02-2016, 17:54   #939
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Like I promised, here's the video of us motoring directly into a constant 30 knot wind back in July 2015 on our way from Elba, Italy to Portisco, Sardinia. We are making 5 knots into 30 knots of wind. As we motored into the evening (it got dark maybe two hours later), the wind increased to a steady 35 knots and our forward speed slowed to three knots. The waves are maybe 6-8ft or so in the video and increased to maybe 10-12 ft later in the evening, but very choppy with a short period.


If you guys don't believe the wind speed, just pause the video as the camera passes the wind speed indicator each time.

Sorry, no video when the wind speed increased.... it was night time.... dark outside.

Ken
Assume there was some urgency in the voyage...hence the reason for motoring, rather than sailing?

Even for a (everyone knows no-good-to-windward! ) catamaran and then too a fat tub 'condomoran' like our beloved vessel, we'd have to struggle to think of a >100nm voyage with 30kn of wind (from any direction...altho we'd be unlikely to set off into such a breeze on the nose of course) where we didn't sail...other than perhaps to close land in daylight, but even then tacking with a 30kn breeze may well produce as good as or better VMG than motoring straight into it ...

Reminds of one of our favorite expressions...nothing goes to windward like a 747
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Old 09-02-2016, 18:02   #940
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Assume there was some urgency in the voyage...hence the reason for motoring, rather than sailing?

Even for a (everyone knows no-good-to-windward! ) catamaran and then too a fat tub 'condomoran' like our beloved vessel, we'd have to struggle to think of a >100nm voyage with 30kn of wind (from any direction...altho we'd be unlikely to set off into such a breeze on the nose of course) where we didn't sail...other than perhaps to close land in daylight, but even then tacking with a 30kn breeze may well produce as good as or better VMG than motoring straight into it ...

Reminds of one of our favorite expressions...nothing goes to windward like a 747
Please see above post. My wife needed to catch a 7am airline flight to Rome. Stuff happens, we never would have made the flight if we sailed. During the first half of the passage, we had a light 7-8 knot breeze and we were able to motor sail into it.

We arrived at 2am via motoring.
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Old 09-02-2016, 18:29   #941
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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The ONLY point is... Several Catamaran owners LIKE YOU demanded to see the video and called me out, so... I wasted an hour publishing it onto YouTube because I don't appreciate being accused by people LIKE YOU of being a liar.

It was basically an uneventful day motoring to make an airline flight. A day when I chose not to go forward when the wind increased to 35 knots to fuss with a stuck staysail furling mechanism.

You happy now?


I have never at any point expressed any interest in seeing your video of a monohull motoring. How about you waste some more time and try and find a post where I have?

And frankly, why the **** would I? If I want to see a mono motoring I can see it live just about every day in the places I sail.

If you dislike being accused of lying, (which I haven't done BTW.) maybe you should just stick to facts in your posts?


I'm always happy Ken, I have a catamaran! You on the other hand don't seem to be very happy at all...... maybe if you didn't have such big fuel bills you wouldn't have to work so much.... just a thought....
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Old 09-02-2016, 18:35   #942
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Please see above post. My wife needed to catch a 7am airline flight to Rome. Stuff happens, we never would have made the flight if we sailed. During the first half of the passage, we had a light 7-8 knot breeze and we were able to motor sail into it.

We arrived at 2am via motoring.

Seems as if it doesn't matter what point of sail your on, you motor or motor sail 100% of the time.


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Old 09-02-2016, 18:46   #943
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Ken, were you an excavator before you retired? I wonder because you really know how to dig a deep hole for yourself.

The two videos you have posted here have you motoring - on a thread where you questioned whether all others motor. Hilarious. The fact that you can continue on with this instead of simply saying "After much thought, my wife was wrong and not all catamarans motor" is amazing.
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Old 09-02-2016, 19:09   #944
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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I have never at any point expressed any interest in seeing your video of a monohull motoring. How about you waste some more time and try and find a post where I have?


If you dislike being accused of lying, (which I haven't done BTW.) maybe you should just stick to facts in your posts...
You have an extremely short memory. Read post #930. You wrote just two long days ago.... Remember? If you can't remember, please feel free to scroll up a handful of posts.
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Old 09-02-2016, 19:14   #945
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Ken, were you an excavator before you retired? I wonder because you really know how to dig a deep hole for yourself.

The two videos you have posted here have you motoring - on a thread where you questioned whether all others motor. Hilarious. The fact that you can continue on with this instead of simply saying "After much thought, my wife was wrong and not all catamarans motor" is amazing.
As I recall.... You were the one who originally questioned my honesty and the existence of the video.

Please watch the video again whilst you enjoy your crow sandwich.
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