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Old 11-12-2015, 15:45   #886
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

So it could simply be that the cat sailors were more honest about their hours?
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:48   #887
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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If you look at the boats you will see that there are a big number of big very expensive luxury monohulls that are not less expensive than condo cats.

But we can confirm (or not) these results on the bigger ARC. Anyway this is not about being less competitive or relaxed attitude it is about to like sailing more and using the engine less and that has nothing to do with money.
You gave us some real life data that can be used to check if catamarans indeed motor a lot, and possibly even to find some explanations to differences in the motoring behaviour of different boat types. I don't want to claim anything at this point, but I'm interested in if you have also motoring data separately for large and small monohulls. If we have such data available, we can make one step more educated guesses on the behaviour of the sailors.

The conclusions would be very different in the case that 1) both (usually large and expensive) multihulls and large monohulls motor a lot vs. 2) large multihulls motor as much as small monohulls (i.e. less than multihulls). So, is it possible to derive this information from the available raw data?
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:50   #888
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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So it could simply be that the cat sailors were more honest about their hours?
Yes. And it could be also that they motored 15 hours with one motor, and then 15 hours with the other motor, and then told that they have sailed only 15 hours.
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Old 11-12-2015, 16:10   #889
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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So it could simply be that the cat sailors were more honest about their hours?
Now you make a new distinction between cat sailors and monohull sailors: the cat sailors are honest and the monohull sailors dishonest
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Old 11-12-2015, 16:16   #890
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Now you make a new distinction between cat sailors and monohull sailors: the cat sailors are honest and the monohull sailors dishonest
I think there is only one way to solve this. A duel .
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Old 11-12-2015, 16:21   #891
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Now you make a new distinction between cat sailors and monohull sailors: the cat sailors are honest and the monohull sailors dishonest
No, what I'm really doing is pointing out that the ARC is pretty much useless as a way of comparing boat performance.

There are too many different agendas.
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Old 11-12-2015, 16:43   #892
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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You gave us some real life data that can be used to check if catamarans indeed motor a lot, and possibly even to find some explanations to differences in the motoring behaviour of different boat types. I don't want to claim anything at this point, but I'm interested in if you have also motoring data separately for large and small monohulls. If we have such data available, we can make one step more educated guesses on the behaviour of the sailors.

The conclusions would be very different in the case that 1) both (usually large and expensive) multihulls and large monohulls motor a lot vs. 2) large multihulls motor as much as small monohulls (i.e. less than multihulls). So, is it possible to derive this information from the available raw data?
No, that has nothing to do with the size of the boats, more with the type of sailors. Fast big performance cats made 0 hours, a Lagoon 380 made 0 hours and among the condo cats that made more hours there was a 40 and a 41, while a 67 made much less hours. The one that made more hours was a 48ft boat.

Regarding monohulls it is about the same, you have 32ft boats with 0 hours and many big boats made 0 hours. The monohulls that made more hours, like on the cats, were not the bigger boats but a 36ft and a 41ft boat.

Both on monohulls and multihulls, performance cruisers and the boats that were better sailed tend to be the ones that make less motoring hours, or even 0.

I have already said on this thread that I believe that engine hours while sailing have much more to do with the sailor than with the type of boat.......but the ones that wants to motor less and sail more also tend to buy faster boats that can be sailed with lighter winds and have an overall better performance on all points of sail: performance cruisers.

There are obviously exceptions on both sides (Monte is one of them) and we can see on the ARC+, a sailor on a Tayana 37 or another on an Halberg Rassy 352, both slow boats, that were very well sailed and did not use the engine.

On the cats we can see that the very well sailed Lagoon 380 and a well sailed Lagoon 400 did not use the engine, while a very badly sailed and slow Leopard 48 used the engine a lot (and took much more days).
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Old 11-12-2015, 16:50   #893
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Most cats are extended because of drag ass. The "marketing" is they don't float on the designed waterline with the desired gear. If you look at the intro advertising of the PDQ 34 you will see submerged transom in what was no doubt an extremely lightly loaded boat for photo purposes.

But with all things, the proof is in the pudding. Would love to have you all multihullers come to the Georgetown regatta and put the various "theories" to test. Inshore and offshore.
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Old 11-12-2015, 17:09   #894
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Most cats are extended because of drag ass. The "marketing" is they don't float on the designed waterline with the desired gear. If you look at the intro advertising of the PDQ 34 you will see submerged transom in what was no doubt an extremely lightly loaded boat for photo purposes.

But with all things, the proof is in the pudding. Would love to have you all multihullers come to the Georgetown regatta and put the various "theories" to test. Inshore and offshore.
I don't think you understood my point. Most of the boats met their design criteria perfectly and floated just fine on their designed waterlines, but changed later due to either "new" models or extra gear. They did not, as you proposed, fail to meet their original designs.

Submerged transoms WERE a purposeful design for many, many boats. I'm talking about transoms that sit in the water, not ones where the bottom step is submerged because of overloading. I don't think any Catana has ever been designed with transoms clear of the water, for example.

So I believe Mr. Slater when he said the extra length was to meet marketing demand for stern steps and not to lift the stern. I don't believe the extra length added much buoyancy, and I have never seen a single PDQ36 that did not have the transom touching the water.

I don't see what a Georgetown race has to do with your argument. Are you just seeking validation that your specific boat design is faster than others? That you keep yours lighter than others? Is this all about racing, or would you like to pit your boat against others when it comes to comforts and space?

Or would you like to keep your wife away from a boat that has a large capacity watermaker, a washing machine and a 10cf freezer?

Or should people who own these boats be shamed for their choices?

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Old 11-12-2015, 17:18   #895
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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No, that has nothing to do with the size of the boats, more with the type of sailors. Fast big performance cats made 0 hours, a Lagoon 380 made 0 hours and among the condo cats that made more hours there was a 40 and a 41, while a 67 made much less hours. The one that made more hours was a 48ft boat.

Regarding monohulls it is about the same, you have 32ft boats with 0 hours and many big boats made 0 hours. The monohulls that made more hours, like on the cats, were not the bigger boats but a 36ft and a 41ft boat.

Both on monohulls and multihulls, performance cruisers and the boats that were better sailed tend to be the ones that make less motoring hours, or even 0.

I have already said on this thread that I believe that engine hours while sailing have much more to do with the sailor than with the type of boat.......but the ones that wants to motor less and sail more also tend to buy faster boats that can be sailed with lighter winds and have an overall better performance on all points of sail: performance cruisers.

There are obviously exceptions on both sides (Monte is one of them) and we can see on the ARC+, a sailor on a Tayana 37 or another on an Halberg Rassy 352, both slow boats, that were very well sailed and did not use the engine.

On the cats we can see that the very well sailed Lagoon 380 and a well sailed Lagoon 400 did not use the engine, while a very badly sailed and slow Leopard 48 used the engine a lot (and took much more days).
I understand from your post that very few boats made most or all of the motoring hours. Unfortunately that means that we probably can not derive any strong statistical conclusions from the data.

(I was hoping to hear that most boats would have had some motoring hours. That would have made the results statistically meaningful. Maybe the rules of the race lead to all favouring the 0 hours approach.)

The fact that performance boats tend to motor less is something that we would expect. That unfortunately does not shed much light on the original question (catamarans vs. others) either.

If it was so that the higher motoring hours of catamarans are a result of just one boat, no conclusions can be drawn on the OP's catamaran related question.

The data then seems to support (at least lightly) the expected conclusion that performance boats motor less. You also hinted that those boats that are last in the race might motor a lot (maybe not to fall too far behind the others). Those two reasons do correlate, but they are not the same reason.
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Old 11-12-2015, 18:42   #896
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Hey, wind forward of beam counts as windward!
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Old 11-12-2015, 18:52   #897
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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No, that is not that way. This is a friendly kind of racing and you can use the engine to charge batteries and most do so.You can also use the engine for propulsion but you have to declare those hours.

The engine hours that count is about are only motoring engine hours and obviously on cats you count the hours you have the engines on only on propulsion mode, independently of having one or two engines.

It is required that an engine log is maintained regarding all the use of engine with discrimination regarding the hours the engine is used in neutral to charge batteries and in gear to motor the boat.
When I'm cruising in light winds, if I need to run an engine to charge batteries, I'm going to take advantage of that engine by running it in gear.
The additional fuel consumption will be trivial compared to the speed advantage.
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Old 11-12-2015, 19:01   #898
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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...
Fast big performance cats made 0 hours, a Lagoon 380 made 0 hours and among the condo cats that made more hours there was a 40 and a 41, while a 67 made much less hours. The one that made more hours was a 48ft boat.
...
Regarding monohulls it is about the same, you have 32ft boats with 0 hours and many big boats made 0 hours. The monohulls that made more hours, like on the cats, were not the bigger boats but a 36ft and a 41ft boat.

Both on monohulls and multihulls, performance cruisers and the boats that were better sailed tend to be the ones that make less motoring hours, or even 0.
...

On the cats we can see that the very well sailed Lagoon 380 and a well sailed Lagoon 400 did not use the engine, while a very badly sailed and slow Leopard 48 used the engine a lot (and took much more days).
It seems that you know about as much about statistical analysis as you do about sailing catamarans.

It looks like the data is very variable with a few large outliers.

In that case, a simple average for mono v multi is almost certainly pointless and quite possibly very misleading.


Can you point us at the actual data so that we can try to do some real statistical analysis?
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Old 11-12-2015, 19:06   #899
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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So it could simply be that the cat sailors were more honest about their hours?
Doubt that - i remember was it 3 years ago? the new carbon fibre catana 47 was entered into the ARC just after launch with a professional crew only to be beaten for multi honours by a lagoon 56 that had declared 5 hours or so motoring despite gps showing over 24 hours of 8 knots in very light winds. Catana wont be doing that again!

Like you said the ARC is meaningless for comparisons.
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Old 11-12-2015, 19:16   #900
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Doubt that - i remember was it 3 years ago? the new carbon fibre catana 47 was entered into the ARC just after launch with a professional crew only to be beaten for multi honours by a lagoon 56 that had declared 5 hours or so motoring despite gps showing over 24 hours of 8 knots in very light winds. Catana wont be doing that again!

Like you said the ARC is meaningless for comparisons.
Not sure how that relates to the comparative honesty of the monohull crews?

But it does show if you're prepared to fudge figures you can make your performance look better than it really is.

Is there prize money up for grabs? I'd imagine there must be given the exorbitant entry fees.

If there's money up for grabs, there's always the chance someone will cheat to get their hands on it.
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