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Old 11-12-2015, 13:51   #871
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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It is very funny that you think that having a big experience sailing catamarans, or having one is needed to know the potential sailing ability of them, or even that is more important than not to be biased about that.
Wow, no knowledge and experience is apparently a good thing.

You know what. I have decided I am an excellent Brain Surgeon, I haven't actually done any surgery but I've read the books.

Hang on - no wait I want to be a rocket scientists as well, I have the same abysmal lack of actual experience as brain surgery so that makes me qualified.

NO!! WAIT!! I have it, I want to be a Brain Scientist, no experience with brains or science.

By the way, the hull shape on the wild oats is all wrong, I'm not a naval architect and I haven't actually sailed wild oats but I did walk past a mono one day at the Yacht club so I think that means I am over qualified.

FFS.
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Old 11-12-2015, 13:57   #872
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Finally some data regarding the subject of the thread.

It regards the comparative the average use of engine by cruisers between monohulls and multihulls, comparing the engine hours that were used by each type of sailboat on the ARC+ (between Cabo Verde and Santa Lucia) that was made by 43 monohulls and 15 multihulls.

The average engine hours on multihulls was 15 hours.

The average engine hours on monohulls was 5 hours.

I believe that if this was not a downwind passage the difference would be bigger.

If we compare the number of boats that used the engine for 3 hours or less that difference is not so big and 61% of the monohulls had done that while regarding multihulls only 40% managed that.

This means probably that there is a bigger percentage of monohull sailors that like to use very little the engine while a considerable number of cat sailors have the same will, while many others use much more the engine than monohull sailors.
There can be many explanations to this observed behaviour. The first one that came to my mind is the fact that cruising catamarans may be on average more expensive than monohulls. I wonder if they collected statistics separately from large and small monohulls.

If large monohulls motored more, that could (partially) explain also the multihull data. The explanation would then be that rich people can afford both expensive boats and motoring whenever they feel the need. Alternatively or in addition such rich sailors (with boats that are nice to live in, not necessarily lean racing machines) might also be less competitive, leading to more relaxed attitude towards motoring during this kind of "competitions".
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Old 11-12-2015, 14:20   #873
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Who said my only interest was performance?
Due to your constant belittling of those that aren't sailing their boat to you standard of performance.

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If it was the case I would be racing not cruising.
It's not obvious that you know the definition of cruising. In fact, you've never posted anything other than blathering about performance.

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But like many I like to enjoy sailing while cruising and having fun while sailing is linked with sail performance. Nobody will have fun sailing a slow boat that sails badly, at least not me and that is why I sail a performance cruiser.
More imagination!

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It seems that around here, and particularly on the multihull forums, many like to do the same and that is why they have and sail performance multihulls.
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Old 11-12-2015, 14:28   #874
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Finally some data regarding the subject of the thread.

It regards the comparative the average use of engine by cruisers between monohulls and multihulls, comparing the engine hours that were used by each type of sailboat on the ARC+ (between Cabo Verde and Santa Lucia) that was made by 43 monohulls and 15 multihulls.

The average engine hours on multihulls was 15 hours.
That's fantastic! Given that cat's motor 100% of the time that means they crossed the Atlantic in only 15 hours!

No wonder cats are taking over!
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Old 11-12-2015, 14:35   #875
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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That's fantastic! Given that cat's motor 100% of the time that means they crossed the Atlantic in only 15 hours!

No wonder cats are taking over!
So funny - so very very funny.
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Old 11-12-2015, 14:45   #876
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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It is very funny that you think that having a big experience sailing catamarans, or having one is needed to know the potential sailing ability of them, or even that is more important than not to be biased about that.

After Monte implying that there is not a big difference between a Lagoon 400 and an Outremer 45, in what regards sailing ability, particularly to upwind sailing, it is obvious that a huge experience sailing catamarans does not give you much knowledge about different sailing boat's potential, not even among different types of cats, obviously less in what regards comparing different types of cats and different types of monohulls.

For doing that what you need not to be biased regarding any type of boats and have a lot of information regarding different types of boat's performance.

You can collect on sailing passages with a huge number of boats, like the ARC, and specially on boat ratings for compensated racing that are elaborated by hugely experienced technicians having as base VPP and race results.

Individual experiences are not of any value since they are just that, individual ones that take in no account the crew experience, that is hugely important in what regards taking a boat to its sailing potential.

Regarding that I guess that there is no possible better example than Monte saying that he made with a Lagoon 400 a passage in the same time of an Outremer 45 (factory extended to 48) and trying to imply with that there is no big difference between the sailing potential of the two boats, particularly upwind.

You need averages to get conclusions and you don't get that with individual experiences. The best idea you can get regarding the overall potential of a sailing boat (upwind and downwind) is given by the IRC rating of the boat, not by any individual experience sailing them, no matter the experience you have sailing any type of boat.

Regarding the performance of condo cats a and a generic good information you can also take the words of an expert designer with both types of boats, Nigel Irens or a test sailor with a huge number of sail tests of all types of boats like Toby Hodges.

" People think multihulls should be able to do all sorts of things to all sort of people: Clearly it is not, they can be very fast and very spartan or they can be very comfortable...these cats are not high performance boats and it is clear that the compromise is quite pointed."

"It was immediately evident that the multihull reputation for performance should not be extended to cruiser cats like these."

This were statements produced by the well known multihull designer and the main sail tester after a 3 days test with a Lagoon 400, Fontaine Pajot Lipari 41 and the Broadblue 43. They got from light winds to 40k winds. A very curious sail test. Here is the movie. Full test on Yachting World magazine.


Thanks for the compliment Polux, however I want implying anything by my post, simply posting some data from a nice afternoons sail, with some comments from the experience. I'll paste my comment you're referring to below to refresh your memory.

"As far as upwind performance of the various types, here's a couple of upwind tracks, into 1-2kn current, 15-20kn TWS. Yellow is a 2010 outremer 45' factory extended to 48', red a 2014 lagoon 400. The outremer averaged .5kn more SOG on this particular day."

No implications, just a straightforward comment on the sail, with an attached screenshot.
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:16   #877
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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That is a 26ft mini. Yes those boats are not maximized to sail upwind. The performance upwind is poor and the angle to the wind big. They are designed for the mini transat, a downwind race, in fact that one has made the mini transat that finished not much time ago.

The photo you posted is from the 2013 Transat. It was really that boat or a similar one?

Apologies for the file pic. Heres one from the sail snapped by Jenijane
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:25   #878
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Wow, no knowledge and experience is apparently a good thing.

You know what. I have decided I am an excellent Brain Surgeon, I haven't actually done any surgery but I've read the books.

Hang on - no wait I want to be a rocket scientists as well, I have the same abysmal lack of actual experience as brain surgery so that makes me qualified.
....
It is needed patience to put up with so many nonsense.

It is certainly needed experience to sail well a multihull, or to perform a brain surgery but to know what is the best brain surgeon or about the comparative performance between different types of cats you don't need to know how to do brain surgeries or to know how to sail a cat: all you need is accurate information regarding the performance of the sailboats and the brain surgeon.

And for what we have seen here regarding the misleading information that several condo cats sailors have about the comparative performance of condo cats versus the performance of bigger performance cats, you don't get reliable information sailing catamarans

Here, have one more piece of information, regarding sailing condo cats upwind by Nigel Irons, a famous cat designer: First he states the obvious, that miracles should not be expected and that condo cats have a huge windage and point less well, 5 to 10 worse than the typical monohull and finally they seem to decide that the boat really goes better motorsailing.

Off course, I am not saying that condo cats cannot go upwind sailing, I am just referring the movie and the opinion of an expert that one does not only have a lot of experience sailing them as designing them. He designs monohulls too, even if he is better known as a performance and racing multihull designer.
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:27   #879
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Apologies for the file pic. Heres one from the sail snapped by Jenijane
No apologies needed, it is in fact the same boat even if the rig seems different now.
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:28   #880
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

SO in the ARC, how do they count the engine hours on the cat's?


Given they usually have two engines, do they check both and add them together? That could mean that the 15 hours was really 7 1/2 hours on both engines.
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:31   #881
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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It seems it is not only Monte that believes that an Outremer 45 with a normal cruising load (that can be a lot on a Outremer 45) can be remotely as fast as a Lagoon 400, specially upwind as it was the case, I mean sailing, not motoring.

I guess it is another one that talks based on real live sailing experience with cats particularly on a Lagoon 400 so he know for sure what he is talking about.
No! This is NOT what I wrote.

None of us know what load the Outremer was actually carrying, so why speculate that it was " a normal cruising load"? For an Outremer 45 to be almost as slow, I'll repeat that as you may have trouble with interpreting my written language , ALMOST AS SLOW as a Lagoon 400, it must be overloaded.

The "payload" ( difference between lightship displacement and max. displacement) is considerably more for a Lagoon 400 than an Outremer 45. In practical terms it is easier to overload the Outremer.

Pollux, you may not have much practical experience with cruising catamarans, but Factor and others do. I'm sure that they, if honest, would admit to having seen many "fast" cruising catamarans made "slow" due to overloading.
Perhaps not.
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:35   #882
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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There can be many explanations to this observed behaviour. The first one that came to my mind is the fact that cruising catamarans may be on average more expensive than monohulls. I wonder if they collected statistics separately from large and small monohulls.

If large monohulls motored more, that could (partially) explain also the multihull data. The explanation would then be that rich people can afford both expensive boats and motoring whenever they feel the need. Alternatively or in addition such rich sailors (with boats that are nice to live in, not necessarily lean racing machines) might also be less competitive, leading to more relaxed attitude towards motoring during this kind of "competitions".
If you look at the boats you will see that there are a big number of big very expensive luxury monohulls that are not less expensive than condo cats.

But we can confirm (or not) these results on the bigger ARC. Anyway this is not about being less competitive or relaxed attitude it is about to like sailing more and using the engine less and that has nothing to do with money.
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:36   #883
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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It is needed patience to put up with so many nonsense.



It is certainly needed experience to sail well a multihull, or to perform a brain surgery but to know what is the best brain surgeon or about the comparative performance between different types of cats you don't need to know how to do brain surgeries or to know how to sail a cat: all you need is accurate information regarding the performance of the sailboats and the brain surgeon.



And for what we have seen here regarding the misleading information that several condo cats sailors have about the comparative performance of condo cats versus the performance of bigger performance cats, you don't get reliable information sailing catamarans



Here, have one more piece of information, regarding sailing condo cats upwind by Nigel Irons, a famous cat designer: First he states the obvious, that miracles should not be expected and that condo cats have a huge windage and point less well, 5 to 10 worse than the typical monohull and finally they seem to decide that the boat really goes better motorsailing.



Off course, I am not saying that condo cats cannot go upwind sailing, I am just referring the movie and the opinion of an expert that one does not only have a lot of experience sailing them as designing them. He designs monohulls too, even if he is better known as a performance and racing multihull designer.


More armchair internet experience.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:41   #884
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Pollux, you may not have much practical experience with cruising catamarans, but Factor and others do. I'm sure that they, if honest, would admit to having seen many "fast" cruising catamarans made "slow" due to overloading.
Perhaps not.

Slow? No, not slow. Slower than they might be, yes for sure.

It's not as if you exceed the design displacement by 1kg and suddenly the boat doesn't sail any more.

It loses SOME performance, not all of it.

An overloaded fast boat could still be faster than a lightly loaded slow boat. It's all a matter of degree.
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Old 11-12-2015, 15:43   #885
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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SO in the ARC, how do they count the engine hours on the cat's?


Given they usually have two engines, do they check both and add them together? That could mean that the 15 hours was really 7 1/2 hours on both engines.
No, that is not that way. This is a friendly kind of racing and you can use the engine to charge batteries and most do so.You can also use the engine for propulsion but you have to declare those hours.

The engine hours that count is about are only motoring engine hours and obviously on cats you count the hours you have the engines on only on propulsion mode, independently of having one or two engines.

It is required that an engine log is maintained regarding all the use of engine with discrimination regarding the hours the engine is used in neutral to charge batteries and in gear to motor the boat.
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