Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-12-2015, 05:16   #796
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I like the Nautitech 40, not properly a condo cat, not properly a performance cat and with a nice price. I have read several test sails and all the comments are very impressive, having in consideration the type of boat and the price.

Guess that the ones that buy a Nautitech 40 are not the same type of sailors that buy lagoons and the requirements in what regards comfort details and sailing pleasure are different: On those steering wheel the skipper have a very good forward visio, better than on most condo cats.

There are a lot of nice features packed into that relatively short cat, but I'm not a fan of the boxie looks.

Also some might say the cockpit/helm area is relatively cramped, but I've found that to be a better arrangement offshore as you are always close by something to grab onto, rather than 'floating' around in an expansive open area.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	01-nautitech-40-open.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	394.2 KB
ID:	114346  
__________________

__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 05:45   #797
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Something few people seem to understand - a fast boat, because of it's speed can have what looks like a worse track when sailing to windward.

For instance - a boat sailing at 5 knots, at 40' apparent in 10 knots true wind, will tack through 117 degrees.

If it sailed at 8 knots, at 35 apparent in the same 10 knots, it would tack through 125 degrees.

It's VMG is over a knot faster though.

By some people's reckoning, the AC 72 tacked through an unimpressive 110 degrees. But they achieved an astonishing VMG of around 18 knots in around 20 knots wind. To do this they had to be sailing at around 150% of TWS and at around 20' apparent.

Yep, cat's can't sail to windward...
Good posting.
__________________

__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 06:10   #798
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
Docking with remote wireless control

Wide beamy cats are going to have a problem finding any std helm position that affords visibility of all sectors. For docking I would suggest borrowing a page from the twin screw powerboaters. Stay away from touching the helm (wheel or tiller), and just use the twin engines themselves. With the wide separation of the props on the cat we've actually got an advantage.

I would definitely consider adding a hand-held remote control to the engine operations, for instance:
Mathers MicroCommander electronic marine engine controls for pleasurecraft, yachts, and small commercial vesselsMathers MicroCommander Marine Engine Remote Control Unit

That allows you to move around and position yourself for good siting during docking.

I imagine they even have wireless remotes these days?

(I was considering such a system that would allow docking from the 'crow's nest' on one of my designs, particularly if you had another crew person to handle the lines down on the deck)

(always thought a crow's nest would be fun at times )
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	650perspectivetrolling.gif
Views:	110
Size:	49.6 KB
ID:	114347  
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 06:15   #799
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
Wireless remote

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post

I imagine they even have wireless remotes these days?

(I was considering such a system that would allow docking from the 'crow's nest' on one of my designs, particularly if you had another crew person to handle the lines down on the deck)

(always thought a crow's nest would be fun at times )
Wireless remote
Yacht Controller - Wireless Remote Control of Your Yacht

Yacht Controller - Wireless Remote Control of Your Yacht
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Wireless Remote Engine Control.png
Views:	113
Size:	363.7 KB
ID:	114349  
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 06:37   #800
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Wifi and engine controls is a bit scary at the dock. Maybe not such a big issue at sea but one slip, flat battery, crew mistake or radio interference can have deadly repercussions, as sadly experienced by a family recently.
__________________
monte is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 06:55   #801
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
Wireless Unit

I think that is why they chose to have a dual band on the wireless unit,...backup.

If you let your batteries go flat....shame on you
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 10:25   #802
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
The outremer track is tracked on AIS and saved in opencpn as a track. I have opencpn set to save tracks for several hours. It's interesting to compare real life tracks and speeds of various boats we are sailing near. Also for passages between reefs or charter skippers special anchorages occasionally if I don't know the boat type I'll look it up on marinetraffic for a picture.
Today we sailed from st Vincent to st Lucia with a variety of conditions, from 35kn TWS and crappy short period swell on the nose, to 10kn TWS and flat water in the lee of st Lucia. The sail was around 8hrs for 50nm and the wind ranged from the nose to the beam. We left at the same time as this yacht and arrived at the same time. I had a nap mid way and woke to find Jen in full race mode at the helm, even trimming the sails as she could see the yacht a half mile abeam.
COMPASS ROSE X - Sailing Vessel: current position and details | MMSI 316011531, Callsign CFN4850 | Registered in Canada | AIS Marine Traffic
I'm not sure what it is or what it's Polars are or if it's a cruiser/racer or whatever. It's around the same length as us (1m longer) and performed pretty much the same on all points of sail, including hard on the wind. We both motored for 30 mins when the wind dropped to 5kn.
Back on topic...Yesterday we sailed from bequia to st Vincent in nice sailing conditions and a cat abeam of us motorsailed with fully reefed main and no jib the whole way. They beat us by a few minutes which was surprising considering we were averaging 7.5kn with one reef in the main. I guess they had both engines flatchat different strokes for different folks I guess
If I understand you well, "this yacht" is that 10 year old Outremer 45 (extended to 48) and the fact that you made a passage on the same time means only or that you are a much better sailor/crew than the one that was sailing the Outremer, or that you have different sails, much more appropriated for the conditions (bigger sail area) or that you motored more than the Outremer.

I think we all agree that an Outremer 48 is a considerably faster boat than a Lagoon 400 in all points of sail.
Polux is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 10:45   #803
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

The outremer is 4-5 yrs old. I doubt they motored and we didn't. I doubt the sailors are much worse as we are lazy cruisers. Take from the figures what you will. The fact is factory Polars and YouTube test sail videos are light ship without even a dinghy on the davits usually and when we load them up the performance factor decreases. Apologies if real world examples don't agree with your internet research.
__________________
monte is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 14:35   #804
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
The outremer is 4-5 yrs old. I doubt they motored and we didn't. I doubt the sailors are much worse as we are lazy cruisers. Take from the figures what you will. The fact is factory Polars and YouTube test sail videos are light ship without even a dinghy on the davits usually and when we load them up the performance factor decreases. Apologies if real world examples don't agree with your internet research.
So what you are saying is that and Outremer 45, extended on the factory to 48ft is as fast as a Lagoon 400 on cruising conditions? That has nothing to do with polars and it is a very odd statement.

Believe in that if that makes you happy
Polux is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 14:52   #805
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

I'm not sure where you are reading that in the attached quote Polux. 🙈
__________________
monte is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 15:10   #806
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
I'm not sure where you are reading that in the attached quote Polux. ��
"Originally Posted by monte
The outremer is 4-5 yrs old. I doubt they motored and we didn't. I doubt the sailors are much worse as we are lazy cruisers. Take from the figures what you will. The fact is factory Polars and YouTube test sail videos are light ship without even a dinghy on the davits usually and when we load them up the performance factor decreases. Apologies if real world examples don't agree with your internet research"


If you are not implying it, than I don't understand all the story regarding "real world examples don't agree with your internet research". It is not needed to know much about cats to know that a Outremer 45, not even a special one made bigger, is considerably faster than a Lagoon 400, both boats in cruising condition, no matter the point of sail, sea or wind conditions.

If you know that what's the point of your above statement?
Polux is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 15:22   #807
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,432
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

This thread is a lot of real-world experience, a lot of theory, and a lot of imagination.

Polux,

Please state your experience sailing catamarans, include make, model, size, and how far you sailed.
__________________
DotDun is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 15:24   #808
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

LOL! Be nice to see a really short reply for once!
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline  
Old 05-12-2015, 15:36   #809
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
5, maybe 7 better, not very impressive, for the Outremer. I thought it would be more around 10.



How do you have managed to have the two boats sailing at the same time? Do you have made a test sail with the Outremer to see the difference in pointing ability and upwind performance?



Anyway the SOG may be only 0.5k (that upwind is considerable) but the VMG would be considerably more than that due to the Outremer better pointing ability.

Polux you already quoted my post where I stated the outremer averaged .5kn higher SOG, you also commented that the tracks were 7 degrees different and that the VMG difference would be significant. I haven't bothered to contest any of your comments so I'm not sure why you are flogging the proverbial dead 🐴 here and implying that somewhere I claimed the two boats to have the same performance.
The post was basically to help anyone interested in real world sailing performance, of which there is little available data, and not directed at you personally to analyse and critique.
Ive tried to present the good with the bad in an unbiased manner so again I'll post some real world experience in an area you may be familiar with, with a comment from our log below.

On this particular day we were the only yacht I sight sailing to otranto. 3 others were motoring direct and one was motorsailing under main only. They all arrived before us.

Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByCruisers Sailing Forum1449354687.906303.jpg
Views:	147
Size:	217.1 KB
ID:	114379

We had 20 knots of wind on the nose but an early start meant we could still sail. Sephina took a lot of water over the bows and handled the conditions like a trooper. We were sailing at 8 knots over the water, but tacking into wind and tide meant we were averaging 2 knots toward our destination. A little bit frustrating but finally we arrived at Otranto 10 hours later.

You can see by our course how much the wind and tide effected this leg.
__________________
monte is offline  
Old 06-12-2015, 20:24   #810
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,713
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Yep cats can't sail to windward. Especially a condomaran like the Belize.

Yesterday I had to really pinch up to lay Lolorua Passage on the way back from the RPYC picnic at Fisherman's Island.

Almost full water and fuel, all our liveaboard junk and 16 people on board. Half of them up on the tramp weighing down the bow:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	8knots.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	35.4 KB
ID:	114439  
__________________

__________________
StuM is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
catamaran, motor

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
500: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk Erik C Lagoon Catamarans 216 28-10-2013 18:47
For Sale: Balmar 100-Amp Alternator (Model 60-100-SR-IG) synchronicity98 Classifieds Archive 0 24-05-2013 18:34
Does the "100" in a "Masters 100 ton" mean anything? twistedtree Seamanship & Boat Handling 7 06-03-2013 19:14
Boat, Nearly New, Just Needs a Little Gelcoat Work ... ad_astra Off Topic Forum 4 29-08-2009 13:21
Nearly Lost Rig! Damage to Forestay from Furler? Northeaster Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 14 25-05-2009 09:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.