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Old 01-12-2015, 21:00   #721
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

[QUOTE=Polux;1976067]The comparison was not between a cruising condomaran but with 44 cruising cat that is a performance cat that he says it is faster than an Outremer. Any performance boat, if not a race boat, but a dual purpose boat, can be used as a cruising boat or a race boat.

[SIZE="6"]A performance cat and a performance monohull, if provided with a cruising interior are dual boats that can be used for cruising or for racing.[/SIZE] No difference here except that monohull skippers seem to like more racing than cat owners, maybe?, or at least race more their boats.

polex, cruisers are not just about the interior interior being suitable.

Externally good shade, weather protection, water/dingy access and cockpit safety and good anchor capability. Many of your monohull racer/cruisers just don't make it as successful cruisers.
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Old 01-12-2015, 21:01   #722
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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It seems you are right about that.

Anyway what I have been telling here is basically two things that have nothing to do with that:
And nothing whatsoever to do with the OP.
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Old 01-12-2015, 21:12   #723
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

[QUOTE=downunder;1976249]
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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The comparison was not between a cruising condomaran but with 44 cruising cat that is a performance cat that he says it is faster than an Outremer. Any performance boat, if not a race boat, but a dual purpose boat, can be used as a cruising boat or a race boat.

[SIZE="6"]A performance cat and a performance monohull, if provided with a cruising interior are dual boats that can be used for cruising or for racing.[/SIZE] No difference here except that monohull skippers seem to like more racing than cat owners, maybe?, or at least race more their boats.

polex, cruisers are not just about the interior interior being suitable.

Externally good shade, weather protection, water/dingy access and cockpit safety and good anchor capability. Many of your monohull racer/cruisers just don't make it as successful cruisers.
What's amusing is that he's been using a pretty much purpose-built race boat to compare with our HOME.

And what, he's found one that's ONE TENTH OF A KNOT faster!

How about the cruisng gear that boat doesn't have? The dinghy? 3.5 metre RIB with 18 hp. Think that might cost me 1/10 knot? How about the targa the dinghy hangs on, the 800 Watts of solar, 600 amp hours of batteries, the 100 litre fridge, 100 litre freezer, (which are NEVER empty), the washing machine, the watermaker, the breadmaker, the tools, the 4 anchors, the sea anchor, the 100 m of 40mm braided nylon rope, the incredibly heavy, but very comfortable full queen size 10 inch thick latex mattress..... the fact the sails have done 26,000 miles and are basically knackered...

You think I could maybe find a tenth of knot?
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Old 01-12-2015, 21:26   #724
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

[QUOTE=44'cruisingcat;1976255]
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Originally Posted by downunder View Post

What's amusing is that he's been using a pretty much purpose-built race boat to compare with our HOME.

And what, he's found one that's ONE TENTH OF A KNOT faster!

How about the cruisng gear that boat doesn't have? The dinghy? 3.5 metre RIB with 18 hp. Think that might cost me 1/10 knot? How about the targa the dinghy hangs on, the 800 Watts of solar, 600 amp hours of batteries, the 100 litre fridge, 100 litre freezer, (which are NEVER empty), the washing machine, the watermaker, the breadmaker, the tools, the 4 anchors, the sea anchor, the 100 m of 40mm braided nylon rope, the incredibly heavy, but very comfortable full queen size 10 inch thick latex mattress..... the fact the sails have done 26,000 miles and are basically knackered...

You think I could maybe find a tenth of knot?
Ahhh, but remember that he is talking about "sportif" cruisers. Sportif folks don't need no steenking latex mattresses!

BTW, how the hell do you move that thing? Regular 4 inch foam mattresses are a bugger to lug about!

Anyway, your cat with all its conveniences seems bloody well fast to me, and as you have noted in the past, I'm a mono sailor... but one who respects any boat that performs well in all its jobs as yours seems to do. Well done in selection of design and execution of build.

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Old 01-12-2015, 22:07   #725
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Thanks Jim. I know Jon Sayer doesn't design or build anything slow either.


Moving the mattress is a nightmare! It is so heavy it feels unnatural. Like there's some kind of extra gravity holding it down.


When we bought it we were told it weighed "about 30 kg". When we saw the two huge Maori guys struggling to drag it out of the truck...


It's nice to sleep on though.


I think I've talked the missus into some new sails... well me and all the bits that have been falling off them lately....
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Old 02-12-2015, 00:29   #726
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

polux has a valid point:

monos sail well and cost 1/2 of the money similar length cat. If you have not experienced cat and do not know any better than mono, then do NOT EVER sail cat, as you will get poorer. And by poorer means less free - have to work more and afford less sailing life.
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:02   #727
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

[QUOTE=downunder;1976249]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The comparison was not between a cruising condomaran but with 44 cruising cat that is a performance cat that he says it is faster than an Outremer. Any performance boat, if not a race boat, but a dual purpose boat, can be used as a cruising boat or a race boat.

[SIZE="6"]A performance cat and a performance monohull, if provided with a cruising interior are dual boats that can be used for cruising or for racing.[/SIZE] No difference here except that monohull skippers seem to like more racing than cat owners, maybe?, or at least race more their boats.

polex, cruisers are not just about the interior interior being suitable.

Externally good shade, weather protection, water/dingy access and cockpit safety and good anchor capability. Many of your monohull racer/cruisers just don't make it as successful cruisers.
What makes a successful cruiser is a boat that it is effectively used for cruising. What one needs to cruise, the comfort and the type of boat preferences varies with cruisers.

Besides all this it is necessary to have the money to buy a cruising boat and regarding long range cruising a performance cat with stability and seaworthiness enough to be safe (it has to be big), it is very expensive or if you put in another way, for the money that cost an Outremer 45 you can buy a much bigger performance cruiser.

There is no right or wrong regarding this, as you seem to assume and the choices are multiple.

We where only talking about speed and regarding that you have a good example on the ARC, two Outremer 51 and a Pogo 50. The fastest Outremer 51, that it is being sailed fast, has been on the same course as the Pogo50 and the boats are very near catching the same wind.

At first the Outremer was a bit faster, now the Pogo is a bit faster and is ahead (the Pogo is not on the racing division).

Different sailors would chose an Outremer 51 or a Pogo50, providing that they have the extra 250 000 euros for the Outremer, but in what regards speed downwind not much of a difference.

That is confirmed by the rating of the two boats, 1.165 for the Outremer, 1.353 for the Pogo, but i guess that the superior rating would only be important in what regards sailing upwind. Anyway the Pogo are known to need a very good sailor to sail it to its rating so that rating can be a bit misleading in what regards average sailors potential with the boat.
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:13   #728
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
polux has a valid point:

monos sail well and cost 1/2 of the money similar length cat. If you have not experienced cat and do not know any better than mono, then do NOT EVER sail cat, as you will get poorer. And by poorer means less free - have to work more and afford less sailing life.
Thanks for that but it all depends on the cats. Sometimes the difference is not half but less than that.

Anyway I think it is a bias not to consider that sailors can experience cats and monos and like more monos. One of the most experienced sailors in Germany (circumnavigated) and the more popular one with many books published sailed monos, sailed cats and is turning to monos again.

One thing is for sure, cats are better at anchor, offering more space and a better interface between cockpit space and interior, but in what regards the overall experience, the tastes vary.

Or do you think that when money is not a problem, in what regards big yachts, most of the sailors chose monohulls because they never tried cats?
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:24   #729
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Thanks for that but it all depends on the cats. Sometimes the difference is not half but less than that.

Anyway I think it is a bias not to consider that sailors can experience cats and monos and like more monos. One of the most experienced sailors in Germany (circumnavigated) and the more popular one with many books published sailed monos, sailed cats and is turning to monos again.

One thing is for sure, cats are better at anchor, offering more space and a better interface between cockpit space and interior, but in what regards the overall experience, the tastes vary.

Or do you think that when money is not a problem, in what regards big yachts, most of the sailors chose monohulls because they never tried cats?

In my experience there are many mono sailors that would love to own a cat but not many cat sailors that would love to own a mono. I just watched the Pogo video and was really impressed, until I remembered my disliking of the motion of a mono under most points of sail.
Cats probably have the advantage of space and motion, both at anchor and on most points of sail, of course this is just my opinion.


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Old 02-12-2015, 11:45   #730
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Thanks for that but it all depends on the cats. Sometimes the difference is not half but less than that.

Anyway I think it is a bias not to consider that sailors can experience cats and monos and like more monos. One of the most experienced sailors in Germany (circumnavigated) and the more popular one with many books published sailed monos, sailed cats and is turning to monos again.

One thing is for sure, cats are better at anchor, offering more space and a better interface between cockpit space and interior, but in what regards the overall experience, the tastes vary.

Or do you think that when money is not a problem, in what regards big yachts, most of the sailors chose monohulls because they never tried cats?

yup, i think mono sailors & rich are traditionalists. If they truly like speed as well there is no reason for mono. Racing cats or tris point better & are faster.

if we take into consideration racing cats, then monos are just dead weight. Comparing cruising cats to racing monos is just lame.
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Old 02-12-2015, 13:23   #731
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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yup, i think mono sailors & rich are traditionalists. If they truly like speed as well there is no reason for mono. Racing cats or tris point better & are faster...
Who is talking about race cats or racing trimarans? or race boats for that matter? It seems you cannot understand the concept of a dual purpose boat. Racing boats are not dual purpose boats they are designed to race only.

You talk about traditionalists but remember me those owners of full keel boats to whom anything with a torpedo keel is a race boat
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Old 02-12-2015, 14:28   #732
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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I think I've talked the missus into some new sails... well me and all the bits that have been falling off them lately....
I see the sails are not working too well this morning, being out-motored by a new sail less cat! Maybe together you can get a discount buying 2 set of sails.
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Old 02-12-2015, 14:45   #733
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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I see the sails are not working too well this morning, being out-motored by a new sail less cat! Maybe together you can get a discount buying 2 set of sails.

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Old 02-12-2015, 14:56   #734
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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My mistake? 2 cats left RH this morning, 1 new Oram motoring (without sails) in company of another cat sailing.
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Old 02-12-2015, 17:01   #735
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Yeah, wasn't us. The new boat is likely Bob's, and he hasn't got sails yet. He really does have to motor 100% of the time, for the next few days anyway.


The other might be Bob's old boat, Mango. It's in the area.


Are you going to be at RH for a while?
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