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Old 01-12-2015, 13:00   #706
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
Listen don't ruin our reputation. I know it's hard. Just last summer I did 21 miles in just over 2 hours. Luckily no one saw us.
Our best run has been 120 miles in 10 hours. Which was lucky for us, as prior to that there had been quite light wind, and we looked like arriving at a reef anchorage (Chesterfield reef) we'd never been to before, well after dark.

Due to the timely burst of breeze we got there in daylight.
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Old 01-12-2015, 15:30   #707
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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I should have stopped to reply to you because you don't discuss in a serious way. It is false that on the Landmark site the boats is advertised as a IRC racer and not as a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer).
Did you actually read my post? I literally quoted their website.

You only see what you want to see, read what you want to read and ignore the bits that don't support your bias against catamarans. That's called confirmation bias.

I'm going to ask you again, just leave it alone. Seriously.
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Old 01-12-2015, 15:44   #708
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post

Quote:
Polux has done it again! Talk about being disingenous!! The smaller Landmark 43 (only 1 foot shorter than 44c's boat!) is described on their website here --> Landmark Yachts AS - Landmark 43 as an IRC CRUISER RACER and once again you're comparing it to a catamaran designed to cruise. Not racer cruiser, or even cruiser racer!

Seriously Polux, give it a rest mate. You're biased against catamarans, despite your assertions not to be, and your comparisons are not valid at best, and deliberately misleading at worst. I don't believe your bias is unconscious either.

You're a 'multi' troll and really need to pack it in. Seriously, give it a rest.
I should have stopped to reply to you because you don't discuss in a serious way. It is false that on the Landmark site the boats is advertised as a IRC racer and not as a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer).
... (rest of the hand waving deleted)...
He didn't say Racer. He said Cruising Racer and you have just confirmed that he was correct.

He is also correct in saying that your constant comparisons between "monohull cruiser/racers" and "cruising condomarans" is tiresome.
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Old 01-12-2015, 15:56   #709
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

OK so how about my question - were the reaching speeds in the polar diagram achieved using only the main and jib as they were in the video of my boat that you posted?


Re racer/cruiser claims - Gunboat said the G4 could be used as a cruiser....
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Old 01-12-2015, 16:05   #710
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Our best run has been 120 miles in 10 hours.
Very impressive indeed.

Only a humble 'condo cat' here, but we still put those big white things (and even the multi-colored thing) up there, trying to figure out how they work of course. We enjoyed plenty of >200nm days under the white things when ocean crossing. Coastal cruising now and yesterday we logged 80nm in 10hrs, altho we did run an engine for 2hrs during a flat calm spell around dawn; guess the latter proves the OP's point...??
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Old 01-12-2015, 16:22   #711
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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He didn't say Racer. He said Cruising Racer and you have just confirmed that he was correct.

He is also correct in saying that your constant comparisons between "monohull cruiser/racers" and "cruising condomarans" is tiresome.
The comparison was not between a cruising condomaran but with 44 cruising cat that is a performance cat that he says it is faster than an Outremer. Any performance boat, if not a race boat, but a dual purpose boat, can be used as a cruising boat or a race boat.

A performance cat and a performance monohull, if provided with a cruising interior are dual boats that can be used for cruising or for racing. No difference here except that monohull skippers seem to like more racing than cat owners, maybe?, or at least race more their boats.

For instance regarding the Outremer we can see that the new Outremer 45 has a "a sport racing package" that cost 101,228 euros.
2015 Outremer 45 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

On the Outremer site we can read:
"Multihull racing? Outremer of course!
I... Results of the early summer races here in the Med confirm that they are living up to their reputation!
At the 900 NM of St Tropez, mythical Outreemr 45 Wally Wallou finished second behind...a VOR 70! We forgive the crew for this "under" performance!
Another race, the double handed Minimax, was shorten due to bad weather conditions. It was the opening of more races to be open to multihulls on the Mediterranean coast. Anable to finish the first leg to Porquerolles, Outremer 49 Kitty Cat at Claude Bocquet won the second leg! This performance confirmed the organization in the accuracy of the rules, compare to the racing monohulls like Figaro 2.

Outremer Yachting and Grand Large Services invite all multihulls (cats, trimarans, golden oldies...) to enter the next races organized between October and May by La GRande Motte and Port Camargue Yacht-Clubs.."

http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/en/Actualities
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Old 01-12-2015, 16:28   #712
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

You keep ignoring the question Bolux. was the reaching figure achieved using only the main and jib?


(Actualy I think it's pretty obvious what the answer is, which is why the question keeps being avoided.)
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Old 01-12-2015, 16:33   #713
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Two years ago I did 28 miles (from Port Vendres in France to Rosas in Spain) in just over 3 hours with just the staysail up from my 34 ton gaff rigged mono hull.

And mother in law cooked a mighty fine curry while we were doing that as well.

Just for info, at full chat under engine, the best speed we get in still water with no wind is 7.0 knots (with a clean bum).

It was blowing F9 at the time - the port master at Port Vendres thought we were crazy to go out in an F9.

It was a fantastic sail - we did not even get the decks wet. It was smooth - like riding on a magic carpet.

This was in August and there was not one single other boat to be seen.

Of course this was with a following wind. Going the other way would have been wet and mserable with the nasty waves we get around Cap Bear.
First off what a beautiful boat .mono or multi if the boat is right it just looks good . Is the hull shape much different due to its modern design and is 34 tons considered normal for a boat of this length and style . and finally the construction method makes me think that the hull is very stiff as well. All in all a beautiful boat you should take to the Voiles de St Tropez
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Old 01-12-2015, 16:39   #714
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
You keep ignoring the question Bolux. was the reaching figure achieved using only the main and jib?


(Actualy I think it's pretty obvious what the answer is, which is why the question keeps being avoided.)
It is Polux, it is not from a Polar but from a ORC file and yes they are made assuming an upwind configuration with jib. Flying a code 0 the boats can going faster on a reach or downwind depending on the sails, that why the files are made using always the upwind configuration, with jib to be on equal terms.
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Old 01-12-2015, 17:59   #715
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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It is Polux, it is not from a Polar but from a ORC file and yes they are made assuming an upwind configuration with jib. Flying a code 0 the boats can going faster on a reach or downwind depending on the sails, that why the files are made using always the upwind configuration, with jib to be on equal terms.
Hmmmm, I think you might be telling porkies again...

I've attached the ORC file for the Landmark 43 - please note the Sails section where it discusses the Main, Jib/Genoa and Asymmetric sails ...

This page (ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology) on the ORC site discusses the VPP program and how the velocities are calculated. Please note the section discussing how the aerodynamic model is calculated.

From the website --> "Aerodynamic model is calculating forces for each type and combination of sails.'

So, the ORC velocity predictions are based on a theoretical model that takes into account all the sails listed. Not just working sails.

You've been deliberately trying to mislead this thread to make your bias become fact. Stop doing it! You have zero credibility in this thread, give it up.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf NOR12343.PDF (223.5 KB, 14 views)
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Old 01-12-2015, 18:25   #716
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Hmmmm, I think you might be telling porkies again...

I've attached the ORC file for the Landmark 43 - please note the Sails section where it discusses the Main, Jib/Genoa and Asymmetric sails ...

This page (ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology) on the ORC site discusses the VPP program and how the velocities are calculated. Please note the section discussing how the aerodynamic model is calculated.

From the website --> "Aerodynamic model is calculating forces for each type and combination of sails.'

So, the ORC velocity predictions are based on a theoretical model that takes into account all the sails listed. Not just working sails.

You've been deliberately trying to mislead this thread to make your bias become fact. Stop doing it! You have zero credibility in this thread, give it up.
It seems you are right about that.

Anyway what I have been telling here is basically two things that have nothing to do with that:

1-that a modern monohull has a better upwind ability (VMG) than a condo cat.

2-that not all monohulls or multihulls are alike and that comparative generalizations about speed and length does not make sense. For comparing potential speed performance the best tool are IRC ratings. Happily on the ARC there are many available since many monohulls and many cats have already made the ARC.

Regarding credibility you have nothing to oppose to this? So it seems we agree on the fundamental
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Old 01-12-2015, 18:35   #717
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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It seems you are right about that.
There's no doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
Anyway what I have been telling here is basically two things that have nothing to do with that:

1-that a modern monohull has a better upwind ability (VMG) than a condo cat.

2-that not all monohulls or multihulls are alike and that comparative generalizations about speed and length does not make sense. For comparing potential speed performance the best tool are IRC ratings. Happily on the ARC there are many available since many monohulls and many cats have already made the ARC.

Regarding credibility you have nothing to oppose to this? So it seems we agree on the fundamental
My calling you out has given me more credibility than your misleading posts in this thread.

You can compare boats that have been designed for the same purpose but you don't seem capable of that. Regarding the ARC, as has been stated many times on the ARC thread, it's a RALLY! For CRUISERS! You know, the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers! No? You seem to think everyone is sailing at their max and anyone not performing as you expect them to be is not sailing well. They're not. It's not a valid comparison. People who buy CRUISING boats couldn't give a rats bum about IRC ratings. The honest truth is that these ratings are a tool you use to confirm your bias against catamarans.

But you know, whatever dude. Whatever gets you to stop spouting bolux in this thread...
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Old 01-12-2015, 18:35   #718
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Hmmmm, I think you might be telling porkies again...

I've attached the ORC file for the Landmark 43 - please note the Sails section where it discusses the Main, Jib/Genoa and Asymmetric sails ...

This page (ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology) on the ORC site discusses the VPP program and how the velocities are calculated. Please note the section discussing how the aerodynamic model is calculated.

From the website --> "Aerodynamic model is calculating forces for each type and combination of sails.'

So, the ORC velocity predictions are based on a theoretical model that takes into account all the sails listed. Not just working sails.

You've been deliberately trying to mislead this thread to make your bias become fact. Stop doing it! You have zero credibility in this thread, give it up.
I don't doubt Polux can look after himself, and i'm happy to be corrected, but it appears from the landmark 43 polars that the reaching sails actually detract from performance until the boat frees off enough for them to have a positive effect.

see http://www.blur.se/polar/landmark43_polars.pdf

Make of them what you will, but they appear to be Polux ball park to me.

By the way, why the need to feel as though we need to defend our boats performance. Me thinks you all protest to much.

The mono/multi war is over. It finished for most of us a long time ago. Modern cruising monos are pretty darn quick, as are jet skis and kite boards.

You may even be suprised to know that the "moth's" are faster than "A" cats.
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Old 01-12-2015, 18:38   #719
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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By the way, why the need to feel as though we need to defend our boats performance. Me thinks you all protest to much.
Some of us just get a bit sick of people stating bollocks as fact
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Old 01-12-2015, 18:56   #720
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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First off what a beautiful boat .mono or multi if the boat is right it just looks good . Is the hull shape much different due to its modern design and is 34 tons considered normal for a boat of this length and style . and finally the construction method makes me think that the hull is very stiff as well. All in all a beautiful boat you should take to the Voiles de St Tropez
The hull design originated from this original pilot cutter:-
Marguerite - Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter

The main difference is the adjustment of the sheer line and the fact that the ballast is external - in a 13 ton lead block let into the keel rather than inside in the bilges. This frees up space in the bilge for 1200 litres of water tanks.

The external lead ballast means that we can set more sail than the original design. 34 tons is pretty normal for this kind of boat - may be a bit on the light side as you can see Marguerite T is a fair bit heavier.

You can see on the bcpcao site other original Bristol Pilot Cutters.

In light to moderate winds we can beat a modern 50ft Benetau on all points of sail - including VMG to windward. We set more sail. In heavy winds our windward peformance drops off more - we have more windage we have to overcome.

The way the boat goes through the water is a revelation for anyone used to a catamaran or a lightish Beneteau, Dufour or whatever.
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