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Old 25-11-2015, 06:15   #661
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Look, blind Freddy can see those boats are designed for different purposes. I think you're just being argumentative now, seeing as I've already said we'll have to agree to disagree.

So, we agree to disagree.
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Old 25-11-2015, 06:35   #662
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by UpOnStands View Post
do cats move around in the cruising areas more often than monos?
if you have a problem with draft you may be inclined to anchor once and then stay put. .
What an odd thing to say. A problem with draft? You are talking about 4 or 5 meters draft?

The biggest draft I sailed with was 2.7 meters and had not problem at all cruising the med and I don't think it will be a problem for the Caribbean. Not many sailboats, except very big ones, performance orientated, will have any problem with draft on the more sailed cruising grounds.

It is quite the contrary, a bigger draft on a monohull generally indicates a better performance boat and the sailors that have performance sailboats, being them cats or monohulls, tend to sail more and motor less than the type of sailor that prefer condo cats or "condo" monohulls.
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Old 25-11-2015, 06:45   #663
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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No, the subject of this thread is catamarans motoring nearly 100% of the time.

It seems obvious to me that among cats the condo cats are the ones that are motored more time and since its performance upwind is poor, it is logical that they are motored more times upwind than downwind.

I hope the intention of the OP was just a provocative one and that by nearly 100% of the time he mean that cats motor more than monohulls. Even in what regard that it seems only valid to me in what regards condo cats, in a general way, due to their poor performance upwind.

That is why I was talking about the upwind performance of condo cats. I am sure that even if the performance is not great there are some that will sail them upwind, no matter what, I believe however that they will not be the majority.

You said this thread was about the poor performance of condo cats sailing upwind, and you are 100% wrong. Read the first post started by the op, nothing about condo cats or upwind, this is something you went of topic on. And the saying like a dog with a bone is really not derogatory, it just describes the way you won't let something go.


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Old 25-11-2015, 06:59   #664
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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You said this thread was about the poor performance of condo cats sailing upwind, and you are 100% wrong. Read the first post started by the op, nothing about condo cats or upwind, this is something you went of topic on. And the saying like a dog with a bone is really not derogatory, it just describes the way you won't let something go.
No, actually he is 100% correct. Since the vast majority of the catamarans we see in Sardinia are what most would consider "condo cats," our observation was based on those... eg. Lagoon etc. mostly charter boats. The Sunreef 58 would fall right into this category, as would the Sunreef powercat.

I've only seen one or two performance racing cats in the area.... I wasn't referring to those. But you are correct about the wind angle sailing point, we saw the mostly condo cats motoring in perfectly good to excellent sailing conditions in all points of sail.... downwind, upwind, broad reach etc.
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Old 25-11-2015, 07:33   #665
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
No, actually he is 100% correct. Since the vast majority of the catamarans we see in Sardinia are what most would consider "condo cats," our observation was based on those... eg. Lagoon etc. mostly charter boats. The Sunreef 58 would fall right into this category, as would the Sunreef powercat.

I've only seen one or two performance racing cats in the area.... I wasn't referring to those. But you are correct about the wind angle sailing point, we saw the mostly condo cats motoring in perfectly good to excellent sailing conditions in all points of sail.... downwind, upwind, broad reach etc.

No, actually he's incorrect, unless of course he can read your mind......through a computer:-)


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Old 25-11-2015, 07:54   #666
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Kenomac, your observations of primarily charter cats motoring in good sailing conditions on all points of sail tells us nothing about their sailing abilities to windward,but a great deal about a typical charter party. The boats are usually overcrowded (to reduce costs, you will often see 8 people on even 40 foot cats) and as a result, often overloaded. Many charter companies do not allow sailing after dark and in any event, most charterers are interested solely in getting to the next location as quickly as possible, getting the hook down and after some cocktails and a swim, heading ashore for some touring. Motoring on a direct course over short distance is, for them, much faster than raising and lowering sails, tacking, etc. Added to that, of course, is the fact that catamarans are much better at motoring than monohulls due to the lack of rolling and twin engines.

Again, your observation (which coincides with mine re:charter cats) that they motor on all points of sail, not just upwind, surely confirms that it is not the lack of sailing ability to windward that causes them to motor. Furthermore, I am confident that we can also agree that most charterers don't spend the time to find out how to sail and trim a cat (which they are often 'sailing' for the first time) properly.

Another factor, even for non-charter cats, is that many neophyte sailors are attracted to catamarans due to the lack of heeling, interior and on-deck lounging space, etc. We see it on this site quite frequently - non sailors who have decided they want to take up cruising and have already decided that they want a catamaran. How well do you think most of them will sail a large cat if they do make a purchase?

One can, of course, simply use this observation to indict catamarans - as you and others have done. But as with so many things in life, things are rarely that simple.

Brad
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Old 25-11-2015, 08:22   #667
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

PS One other thought comes to mind...... I suspect that the average age of the owner of a cruising cat is greater than the average age of the owners of comparably sized monohulls: the cost of admission, so to speak, virtually ensures this for all but very wealthy people. As we get older (and I include myself here), the attraction of beating to windward in all but relatively smooth seas has been lost. I tend to look for favourable conditions for a passage (including, where possible, winds from a favourable direction).
When there are winds on the nose and I have a relatively close destination in mind, I have absolutely no compunctions about motor sailing - something whcih was anathema to me when I was younger and saw myself as a purist. I no longer care much about labels, or how people perceive me or my boat. I want to be as comfortable as possible when cruising and indeed, after alifetime of sailing monohulls, that is why I bought a cat. Would I prefer a performance cat with comparable accomodations/equipment? Absolutely, but sadly it is outside of my snack bracket.
So yes, you will sometimes see me motorsailing upwind in my condo cat and being quite comfortable doing so.
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Old 25-11-2015, 09:08   #668
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
You said this thread was about the poor performance of condo cats sailing upwind, and you are 100% wrong. Read the first post started by the op, nothing about condo cats or upwind, this is something you went of topic on. And the saying like a dog with a bone is really not derogatory, it just describes the way you won't let something go.
.
At least I don't say others say things that they did not said.

I never said this thread was about the poor performance of condo cats sailing upwind.

What I said was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
...
Again, this was about the poor performance of condo cats upwind and the probable need to motor more upwind on them than on modern monohulls, not about anything more. That was on the subject of this thread.

I don't understand why you and others are talking about performance catamarans with daggerboards that have a good performance upwind. Never said that those motored more than monohulls and I don't think they do. The probability is that if one chose a performance monohull or a performance multihull it is because it likes to sail and therefore the probability is that it will sail more than the ones on a condo cat or a "condo" monohull.
Not the subject of this thread but on the subject of the thread, meaning relevant to the thread, while performance catamarans, that have a good performance upwind, are not.
I said also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes I agree, what is important is the VMG and again I was only talking about condo cats having a poor VMG upwind. That is the only thing that is relevant to this thread because that will lead them to motor more when going upwind than many monohulls.....

.. the subject of this thread is catamarans motoring nearly 100% of the time.

It seems obvious to me that among cats the condo cats are the ones that are motored more time and since its performance upwind is poor, it is logical that they are motored more times upwind than downwind.

I hope the intention of the OP was just a provocative one and that by nearly 100% of the time he mean that cats motor more than monohulls. Even in what regard that it seems only valid to me in what regards condo cats, in a general way, due to their poor performance upwind.

That is why I was talking about the upwind performance of condo cats. I am sure that even if the performance is not great there are some that will sail them upwind, no matter what, I believe however that they will not be the majority.
I think it is very clear what I said and why it is relevant for this thread the condo cat poor performance upwind : They are the huge majority of cats around and that negative sail characteristic will contribute for the more extensive use of engine. I hope this is now clear with you.
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Old 25-11-2015, 09:28   #669
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
....
One can, of course, simply use this observation to indict catamarans - as you and others have done. But as with so many things in life, things are rarely that simple.
Brad
Brad you are wrong if you think I am indicting Condo cats, but reality is what it is. I remember that last year when I said that the condo cats performance on the trade winds, on the ARC, was surprisingly close to the one of performance cats all the owners of performance cats had a go at me.

I was only looking at reality as it is presented by many examples on several ARC, many examples that constitute an average. This year you have again, on the two ARC, condo cats with surprisingly good results if compared with several performance cats.

The fact that condo cats have a poor upwind performance is just a fact but that does not mean that they cannot sail upwind. Many old monohull designs have a similarly poor upwind performance and that does not mean that they are not sailed upwind.

There are many condo cats used on circumnavigations, more than performance cats, for the simple reason they are much more and they have no trouble in doing so. After all a circumnavigation is made basically with trade winds and condo cats have a good performance in all points of sail except upwind.
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Old 25-11-2015, 10:41   #670
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

And all I was saying was that there are numerous reasons why one would expect to see a large number of cats, especially charter cars, motoring so much. And comparisons of performance between a 49 foot, carbon fibre monohull with a racing cockpit and marginal accomodation with a catamaran that has a comfortable cockpit and much larger and more luxurious interior accomodation doesn't really get us any closer to the answer to the OP's question. It does, however, speak to a bias against catamarans.
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Old 25-11-2015, 11:03   #671
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Brad you are wrong if you think I am indicting Condo cats, but reality is what it is. I remember that last year when I said that the condo cats performance on the trade winds, on the ARC, was surprisingly close to the one of performance cats all the owners of performance cats had a go at me.

I was only looking at reality as it is presented by many examples on several ARC, many examples that constitute an average. This year you have again, on the two ARC, condo cats with surprisingly good results if compared with several performance cats.

The fact that condo cats have a poor upwind performance is just a fact but that does not mean that they cannot sail upwind. Many old monohull designs have a similarly poor upwind performance and that does not mean that they are not sailed upwind.

There are many condo cats used on circumnavigations, more than performance cats, for the simple reason they are much more and they have no trouble in doing so. After all a circumnavigation is made basically with trade winds and condo cats have a good performance in all points of sail except upwind.
Newsflash: There are different designed boats to meet different requirements.

Your obsession with upwind sailing performance is one such requirement. But, as with lots of designs, to get that high performance upwind, you sacrifice several features that are of higher importance to others.

You don't have to justify your choice of boat to me, nor do I to you. So why all the blather??
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Old 25-11-2015, 11:27   #672
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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... And comparisons of performance between a 49 foot, carbon fibre monohull with a racing cockpit and marginal accomodation with a catamaran that has a comfortable cockpit and much larger and more luxurious interior accomodation doesn't really get us any closer to the answer to the OP's question. It does, however, speak to a bias against catamarans.
You getting all wrong. First it has not a racing cockpit. It seems that you did not see it, it has a sailing reserved cockpit sailing area and a reserved living cockpit area, with a table and the Knierim 49 has nor marginal accommodations, but good quality ones.


But as I said there are more performance monohull cruisers with an overall better performance than a Outremer 51, for instance a Pogo 50. the IRC rating of the Outremer 51 is 1165, the one of the Pogo 50 is between 1296 and 1353. There is one this year on the ARC, not as well sailed as the Outremer 51, that goes with about the same pace.

Several years ago there was one better sailed that leaved the first cat, a Catana 431, at more than two days and that Catana beat several other cats over 55ft.

The Pogo 50, is not a Carbon boat, it costs much less than a Outremer 51, it is not a race boat and his designer described its program this way: "the Pogo 50 is tailored for fast cruising...Its speed and its seaworthiness put far, far away shores within reach ! Its shallow draft, once the keel is up, allows access to all little paradisiac coves."

The interior of the Pogo 50 is far from be the one of a race boat:

Note that I am not comparing the type of boats or accommodations, there are tastes for both, just comparing speed regarding length.

It was not me that brought the subject of performance boats, being them cats or monohull and regarding that the only thing I said was that regarding comparative overall sail performance generalizations don't make sense and that you have to look to each particular boat to know what is the fastest one.

Where is the bias here regarding monohulls or multihulls?
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Old 25-11-2015, 11:46   #673
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Newsflash: There are different designed boats to meet different requirements.

Your obsession with upwind sailing performance is one such requirement. But, as with lots of designs, to get that high performance upwind, you sacrifice several features that are of higher importance to others.

You don't have to justify your choice of boat to me, nor do I to you. So why all the blather??
Finally I agree with you. I don't understand what the noise is about, but it is not me that are making it or not sticking with reality. I understand perfectly why most cruisers buy non performance boats, being them monohulls or multihulls and I agree that those boats suit more the sailing and cruising program of the majority.

Regarding sailing, upwind sailing performance is not more important than any other point of sail and I only referred here the poor performance upwind of condo cats because that lead to a bigger engine utilization as it was confirmed by several posters and that has to do with the subject of this thread, in what regards motoring more or less.

I don't see the use of the engine as anything negative in what regards cruising neither I see in a negative way those that use motorboats for cruising. I use sails whenever I can (and I can more than most because my boat sails with very little wind) because I enjoy sailing, including upwind.

It is far from being practical (a motor boat is much more practical) it is a question of pleasure. Some like to cruise, I like to sail and to cruise in equal measure. It is a personal taste. Most would be bored sailing at 4K when they could reach destination much more quickly motoring at 7k. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 25-11-2015, 12:36   #674
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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You getting all wrong. First it has not a racing cockpit. It seems that you did not see it, it has a sailing reserved cockpit sailing area and a reserved living cockpit area, with a table and the Knierim 49 has nor marginal accommodations, but good quality ones.


But as I said there are more performance monohull cruisers with an overall better performance than a Outremer 51, for instance a Pogo 50. the IRC rating of the Outremer 51 is 1165, the one of the Pogo 50 is between 1296 and 1353. There is one this year on the ARC, not as well sailed as the Outremer 51, that goes with about the same pace.

Several years ago there was one better sailed that leaved the first cat, a Catana 431, at more than two days and that Catana beat several other cats over 55ft.

The Pogo 50, is not a Carbon boat, it costs much less than a Outremer 51, it is not a race boat and his designer described its program this way: "the Pogo 50 is tailored for fast cruising...Its speed and its seaworthiness put far, far away shores within reach ! Its shallow draft, once the keel is up, allows access to all little paradisiac coves."

The interior of the Pogo 50 is far from be the one of a race boat:

Note that I am not comparing the type of boats or accommodations, there are tastes for both, just comparing speed regarding length.

It was not me that brought the subject of performance boats, being them cats or monohull and regarding that the only thing I said was that regarding comparative overall sail performance generalizations don't make sense and that you have to look to each particular boat to know what is the fastest one.

Where is the bias here regarding monohulls or multihulls?

Very pretty boat, but in my eyes definitely a racing cockpit.


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Old 25-11-2015, 13:19   #675
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Can't you see that the cockpit is divided in two parts? Try to enlarge the image: one is for the ones that have pleasure sailing the boat, the other is for the ones that sit and enjoy the ride.


This is a racing cockpit on a boat with about the same size. can't you see the difference?
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