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Old 24-11-2015, 18:58   #646
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

The manufacturer calls the Kneirim a performance cruiser on their website. Perhaps they are wrong.
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Old 24-11-2015, 19:09   #647
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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The Knierim would be more accurately described as a racer/cruiser. As would a pod-cat. Designed as a racer with bare minimum accommodations thrown in (2 people in a 49' boat), possibly very nicely finished. The Outremer is accurately described as a performance cruiser. Designed as a family cruising boat that can cruise the world in speed and comfort with the accommodation you'd expect in a boat that size, not restricted for racing.
The distinction between a cruiser racer and a performance cruiser is non existent. A cruiser racer is necessarily a performance cruiser (while it is used for cruising). Cruiser racer means that it is a dual purpose boat that is fast enough and therefore can be used for racing or for performance cruising.

Some cruiser racers have an almost bare interior not really fit for cruising and others are so slow that is hard to understand why someone would consider them fit for racing.

That is not the case of the Knierim, particularly the one that is making the ARC, that is fast and has a quality, well finished interior. I have posted the photo and that's evident. The space one likes or needs for cruising it is a personal choice and that boat has more than enough interior space for a couple to cruise, probably even for more than that.

These type of boats is used for some more for racing, for others more for cruising. As I have said the Marten 49 is the same type of boat and has about the same performance. Here you have one that was used practically only for cruising, having made a single race:









Regarding dual purpose cruiser racers, used as long range performance cruisers, there are many examples. Only on the ARC world circumnavigation there are two smaller ones making it, a XP 44 and a First 44.7. A Famous American cruiser that is on his second (or third?) circumnavigation and lives aboard the boat with the family uses a similar cruiser racer, an one off.

As I said, choosing a performance monohull or a performance multihull is a personal choice and there are obviously sailors that prefer one or another and that was not the point and it is not worth a discussion because it is clearly a personal preference.

Again, this was about the poor performance of condo cats upwind and the probable need to motor more upwind on them than on modern monohulls, not about anything more. That was on the subject of this thread.

I don't understand why you and others are talking about performance catamarans with daggerboards that have a good performance upwind. Never said that those motored more than monohulls and I don't think they do. The probability is that if one chose a performance monohull or a performance multihull it is because it likes to sail and therefore the probability is that it will sail more than the ones on a condo cat or a "condo" monohull.
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Old 24-11-2015, 19:13   #648
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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My point being you're comparing a carbon, flat deck race boat with minimum accommodation designed for maybe convincing the racer's wife that some harbour/coastal cruising will happen to a GRP boat designed for world cruising, fast. There's no minimum accommodation nor are there design compromises for racing. A racer/coastal cruiser compared to a performance world cruiser. Very different design purposes; apple and orange.



Sheesh! To call a boat with the cockpit shown any sort of a cruiser is ludicrous IMO. I'm sure that one can cruise in it, and damn fast too, but that in no way could be considered a cruiser friendly cockpit.

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Old 24-11-2015, 19:32   #649
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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The distinction between a cruiser racer and a performance cruiser is non existent.
To you, perhaps. To the designer a racer with minimal cruising accom chucked in versus a performance cruiser designed with no racing compromises, there's a massive difference. With regards to the two specific boats we're talking about, huge design difference. The mono deserves it's higher rating because it was designed for that purpose; they're not equally comparable. Your bringing in of sailor preferences is obfuscating, you're the only one talking about sailor preferences.

As I said, a pod cat is a more equal comparison to the Kneirim for what the designers designed them for. Not anyone's preference... The Outremer, is not.

If you can't see that then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Old 24-11-2015, 19:34   #650
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Yes, it needs a tailgate on that truck bed.

Even the mild following seas I've been in coastal cruising would be wetting my topsiders.
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Old 24-11-2015, 19:43   #651
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The distinction between a cruiser racer and a performance cruiser is non existent. A cruiser racer is necessarily a performance cruiser (while it is used for cruising). Cruiser racer means that it is a dual purpose boat that is fast enough and therefore can be used for racing or for performance cruising.

Some cruiser racers have an almost bare interior not really fit for cruising and others are so slow that is hard to understand why someone would consider them fit for racing.

That is not the case of the Knierim, particularly the one that is making the ARC, that is fast and has a quality, well finished interior. I have posted the photo and that's evident. The space one likes or needs for cruising it is a personal choice and that boat has more than enough interior space for a couple to cruise, probably even for more than that.

These type of boats is used for some more for racing, for others more for cruising. As I have said the Marten 49 is the same type of boat and has about the same performance. Here you have one that was used practically only for cruising, having made a single race:









Regarding dual purpose cruiser racers, used as long range performance cruisers, there are many examples. Only on the ARC world circumnavigation there are two smaller ones making it, a XP 44 and a First 44.7. A Famous American cruiser that is on his second (or third?) circumnavigation and lives aboard the boat with the family uses a similar cruiser racer, an one off.

As I said, choosing a performance monohull or a performance multihull is a personal choice and there are obviously sailors that prefer one or another and that was not the point and it is not worth a discussion because it is clearly a personal preference.

Again, this was about the poor performance of condo cats upwind and the probable need to motor more upwind on them than on modern monohulls, not about anything more. That was on the subject of this thread.

I don't understand why you and others are talking about performance catamarans with daggerboards that have a good performance upwind. Never said that those motored more than monohulls and I don't think they do. The probability is that if one chose a performance monohull or a performance multihull it is because it likes to sail and therefore the probability is that it will sail more than the ones on a condo cat or a "condo" monohull.

The subject of this thread is catamarans motoring 100% of the time. No mention of condo cats and no mention of upwind, these are subjects you brought into the conversation not the op. That being said, I agree different strokes for different folks, whether it be monos or multis fast or slow.


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Old 24-11-2015, 20:12   #652
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Spoke with my dock neighbor Lagoon 440. Yes he moters a lot unless down wind as it does him in puting up the main for a couple of hours of travel. Normally on the way home it is down hill so he will run on the heady which is a furler. If he was younger and bought again he would have a furling main.

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Old 24-11-2015, 23:16   #653
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Sheesh! To call a boat with the cockpit shown any sort of a cruiser is ludicrous IMO. I'm sure that one can cruise in it, and damn fast too, but that in no way could be considered a cruiser friendly cockpit.

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It would be good for cruising around the tip of Qld and into NT. The local fauna can come aboard quite easily for you to admire them. This guy is training his pet to jump up:



There's always one local that always drops in on you and bosses the local break up there. Really kills the vibe:

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Old 25-11-2015, 00:49   #654
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

do cats move around in the cruising areas more often than monos?
if you have a problem with draft you may be inclined to anchor once and then stay put. Cats in the Med are often charter so the group wants to see as many places as possible - quick response needed so the engine is used.
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Old 25-11-2015, 01:01   #655
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Sheesh! To call a boat with the cockpit shown any sort of a cruiser is ludicrous IMO. I'm sure that one can cruise in it, and damn fast too, but that in no way could be considered a cruiser friendly cockpit.

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Makes me wanna reach for some Iroko and a hammer and nails and finish the job...........

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Old 25-11-2015, 05:29   #656
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Sheesh! To call a boat with the cockpit shown any sort of a cruiser is ludicrous IMO. I'm sure that one can cruise in it, and damn fast too, but that in no way could be considered a cruiser friendly cockpit.
Jim
I guess you have not noticed that the picture you posted is just a photo taken with a grand angular from the aft part of the cockpit of the Knierim 49, the part of the cockpit that is reserved to the ones that are sailing the boat. It looks bigger due to the wide angle used:

As in any sailor's boat it is a comfortable and ample space. It is also the space where you can access the main storage space under the cockpit. The Knierim 49, as many other modern performance cruisers boats with this configuration, has a cockpit space for living, with a removable table and all. Very cozy and comfortable and with a dimension more than sufficient, at least for 8 persons. Look at the pictures again:



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Old 25-11-2015, 05:52   #657
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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To you, perhaps. To the designer a racer with minimal cruising accom chucked in versus a performance cruiser designed with no racing compromises, there's a massive difference. With regards to the two specific boats we're talking about, huge design difference. The mono deserves it's higher rating because it was designed for that purpose; they're not equally comparable. Your bringing in of sailor preferences is obfuscating, you're the only one talking about sailor preferences.

As I said, a pod cat is a more equal comparison to the Kneirim for what the designers designed them for. Not anyone's preference... The Outremer, is not.

If you can't see that then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
Again, there are Cruiser racers, has you say with practically a racing interior. There are cruiser racers with a good quality cruising interior.
A cruiser racer is a dual purpose boat that can be used for racing and for cruising. While cruising all cruiser racers are performance cruisers.

The Knierim 49 belongs to the last category, to the ones that have a good and comfortable cruising interior, a Sun Fast 3600 to the first, the ones that are more pointed to racing then to cruising. Look at the difference:

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Old 25-11-2015, 05:56   #658
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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To you, perhaps. To the designer a racer with minimal cruising accom chucked in versus a performance cruiser designed with no racing compromises, there's a massive difference. With regards to the two specific boats we're talking about, huge design difference. The mono deserves it's higher rating because it was designed for that purpose; they're not equally comparable. Your bringing in of sailor preferences is obfuscating, you're the only one talking about sailor preferences.

As I said, a pod cat is a more equal comparison to the Kneirim for what the designers designed them for. Not anyone's preference... The Outremer, is not.

If you can't see that then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
I stand by my statement, especially the last sentence which you seem to have missed.

You're like a dog with a bone.
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Old 25-11-2015, 06:01   #659
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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The subject of this thread is catamarans motoring 100% of the time. No mention of condo cats and no mention of upwind, these are subjects you brought into the conversation not the op....
No, the subject of this thread is catamarans motoring nearly 100% of the time.

It seems obvious to me that among cats the condo cats are the ones that are motored more time and since its performance upwind is poor, it is logical that they are motored more times upwind than downwind.

I hope the intention of the OP was just a provocative one and that by nearly 100% of the time he mean that cats motor more than monohulls. Even in what regard that it seems only valid to me in what regards condo cats, in a general way, due to their poor performance upwind.

That is why I was talking about the upwind performance of condo cats. I am sure that even if the performance is not great there are some that will sail them upwind, no matter what, I believe however that they will not be the majority.
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Old 25-11-2015, 06:10   #660
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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..
You're like a dog with a bone.
That does not seem nice at all and I strongly dislike the comparison. I hope this is not going to turn to insulting people. I will not insult nobody and dislike to be insulted.

It seemed to me that you were not seeing the difference between a cruiser racer interior pointed almost exclusively to racing, with a poor cruising interior and a cruiser racer with a comfortable interior for cruising, a performance cruiser. That's why I posted images of the two types.
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