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Old 08-11-2015, 12:50   #511
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Aftmast and another Unusual Rig

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The question was not meant to be divisive, and yes... I did intend to get some reasonable answers. Which we have received such as.... [Many of the multihulls in my area must be charter boats which is possibly why they are in a hurry to get from place to place.] seems to be the largest consensus.

My wife is not a member of this forum.... It was actually her question based on an observation made locally in Sardinia. We'd been thinking of buying a large catamaran, so we wanted to ask catamaran owners why so many of them motor on perfectly nice sailing days?

If you have a constructive answer, we sure would like to hear it?

Thanks

Ken

Aft Mast Origination & Justification

Aftmast rigs??? - Page 7 - Boat Design Forums

Reefed Deployment Configurations

Aftmast rigs??? - Page 29 - Boat Design Forums

Motorsailing with Appreviated 'Mainsail'

Aftmast rigs??? - Page 53 - Boat Design Forums



UNUSUAL Rigs can be Good Ocean Rigs
Aftmast rigs??? - Page 55 - Boat Design Forums
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:51   #512
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Carbon dioxide is good... not bad. Without it, we would all die. Very basic Biology 101.
An overabundance of released carbon dioxide is bad… not good. Very basic Geology and Environmental Science 101.

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Old 08-11-2015, 13:02   #513
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I don't think a full batten main has anything to do with increasing any perceived motoring:
Mark
I might suggest you read thru a few of these postings for a more comprehensive view by a whole number of participates as to why they don't use their mainsails
Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Type 'mainless' into the search function and I'm sure you will discover other reasons.
Don't Use the Main (sail that is)
Death of the Ketch
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:10   #514
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Now, I have not been on a Lagoon 450. I have seem them (450, 420 and bigger) making remarkably fast passages on the ARC, almost as fast as performance cats. They are certainly not designed to go upwind
Certainly the Lagoon is not worse than that.

They cannot do that only using the engine can they?
Polux, just follow the ARC+ now,, and se what the condo cat Lagoon380 will do.
Its not always the boat, it is also the sailor that is important.
This sailor on this boat has beaten 5 X 412 in a race singelhanded in 2009, called Around FYN, when there is good winds this cat can tack higher and go faster then the X412.
but in low winds Lagoon 380 is not doing so good.
Its not only the boat it is also how sails it.
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:15   #515
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by edmundsteele View Post
We have friends who sailed their cat across the Atlantic last year and for much of the down-wind passage didn’t use the main. The reason they gave was that the (following) seas were so high, they felt it was dangerous to leave the cockpit and they could more safely fly their Genoa with its roller furling. Before anyone comments on how this might not make sense, consider that some of us are no longer 23 years old and we are not as limber as we once were. My wife and I have been mono-hull sailors and although we have sailed aboard cats in light conditions, it was only a few months ago that we sailed aboard a cat in livelier seas. When I left the cockpit to help raise the main, I was immediately struck by the fact that there was almost nothing to hold on to! The lifelines were cable and “floppy”; the cockpit sloping away and both lacking handholds and out of reach; the shrouds that on a mono-hull are conveniently across from the mast, were inconveniently on the side of the cockpit. This means passing forwards beyond the “security” of the shroud and climbing up a curved, wet plastic ramp to approach the mast – sans handholds. If you make it this far, you are then faced with the mast climb to reach the sail cover etc. as discussed at the beginning of this thread. I can now appreciate why there would be a reluctance to fly the main for a short “jump” between anchorages. In my opinion, in-boom furling would make a huge difference and would make the sail deployment both easier and safer. Note that here I am describing the size of cat that is typically chartered.
Interesting first-hand observation.
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:16   #516
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
I might suggest you read thru a few of these postings for a more comprehensive view by a whole number of participates as to why they don't use their mainsails
You may have noticed that I posted on at least one of those threads.

I still think the "full-battened" mainsail hypothesis is deeply flawed. You can call it a mainsail hypothesis in general, or a charter boat hypothesis, or any of several other possible reasons, but the only conclusion is that some people motor more than others - and the reason why has nothing to do with any particular type of sail.

Again, we see a high percentage of furling mainsail boats motoring.

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Old 08-11-2015, 13:18   #517
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Overlapping Genoa and all-furling rig

The points I was trying to make for my aft-mast rig with its big genoa is that I was trying to meet a big variety of conditions with a limited sail inventory (my 3 sails are the only ones I have onboard, and are set up to be reduced in size by roller furling, not hoisted or replaced by alternatives).

As such I wanted a good size genoa sail for those often encounter 5-15 knot winds that we would really like to sail in rather than turning on the engine(s). This size sail, in those conditions, should be relatively easy to handle, ...(and when out cruising I would NOT be looking at getting into tacking duals). I was seeking to get the best from this genoa sail by giving it the best help from the 'cutter jib' (mainstaysail as I refer to it), and providing for its best dumping traits as described by Tom.

I'm also quite convinced that modern sail materials such as the tape-drives or these Titanium sails would allow for a very light weight sail that would maintain their shape even in higher wind conditions. These materials should also allow for sailing under a partially furled sail. As I have said before I believe a hefty size ROUND furling 'tube' (headstay) should utilized to negate some difficulties of stalling the sail due to a 'too-sharp' leading edge to the headsails. Combine this type of headstay foil with a modern 'shaped foam insert' in the leading edge, and this sail should set pretty well in the roller-reefed condition. It would be nice to be able to utilize this reef-able genoa up to the 30 knot range.
Code Zero Sails, aerodynamic questions - Page 2 - Boat Design Forums

For storm conditions that we see coming we slip another sail over that furling genoa:
Storm Sail Configurations
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:48   #518
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by pir8ped View Post
Yeah, such assertions are based on pretty uninformed assumptions.

Multihulls go so fast so easily downwind, I rarely use the main sail above F4. I hang 2 foresails on the forestay, size appropriate to the wind, and sail at hull speed and above very comfortably.

When I crossed the Atlantic singlehanded, there were up to a dozen squalls a day in the trades. Since my foresails are hanked on and hoisted on one halyard, all I had to do to drop both sails was to open a clutch on the mast - which I can reach easily from the cockpit. I often kept the storm jib up on an inner forestay, so that if I dropped the headsails, I still had the storm jib raised to keep enough speed for good steerage. No-one could have dumped wind faster than I did.

Since I can reach the foot of the mast easily from the cockpit, I never have to stand on the roof, unless I want to admire the view from there.

There's catamarans and then there's catamarans. It doesn't do to generalise and condemn so easily.
And tell me, did you experience any lifting sensations of the vessel or the bows when you were hit by the gusts from the rear while carrying those headsails??
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:55   #519
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
.Yes - most of them are. Pretty simple isnt it. Very straight forward. For years now I have reefed single handed whilst on the wind, dropped and hauled sails all on my own. It really isnt rocket science.
Perhaps these are the key words in reefing on your own.

Try it on a sloop rigged 65 cat with a full battened main, .....that is reefing off the wind
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:58   #520
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
An overabundance of released carbon dioxide is bad… not good. Very basic Geology and Environmental Science 101.

Mark
I believe it's proper on CF to present my entire quote and not just a small portion in order to misrepresent my view.

Just in case others missed my quote, here it is in the non-cherry picked edition.

"That's not good for trees and plant life.

Trees and plants need carbon dioxide in order to survive. Plants produce oxygen as a byproduct of photosynthesis. Humans and all animals need oxygen to survive.

Carbon dioxide is good... not bad. Without it, we would all die. Very basic Biology 101."


Better yet... Let's get back to the subject at hand.... Why do so many catamarans and monohulls motor so much of the time?

And since they seem to, why not buy a powerboat instead?

After all, this isn't a thread about science or religion.
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:59   #521
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
But if you think about it, it's simple geometry that hard on the wind is the most common point of sail. A really close winded sailboat can tack in 100 degrees over ground; 110 or 120 would be more common. If we consider "sailing close-hauled" to include up to 40 or 45 degrees AWA, then we're probably talking about 150 or 160 degrees over ground. So 160 degrees out of the compass, or nearly 50%, is going to be either tacking, or hard on the wind, or close hauled.

It's highly relevant to this discussion, because if you believe, like most cruisers, that "gentlemen don't go to windward", then you will be motoring nearly 50% just as the result of wind direction, not counting "no wind", "getting in and out of harbor", etc.
Very astute observation!
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Old 08-11-2015, 14:10   #522
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Apparently, catamarans have the ability to defy the laws of physics and are able to levitate above the choppy wind driven waves.

I don't believe it. I've seen videos of Cats doing the same thing in the same weather and being just as miserable. BTW, Sunday was miserable with the big swells coming at us from broadside, but no seasickness yesterday... We plowed into the crummy conditions just fine. I've also spoken to quite a few cat owners who are adamant... As we are too, about avoiding bad weather and sailing across passages in good weather.

We got caught out... it can happen to anyone..... Unless of course the sailor is one who stays at the dock, lives in a marina or dreams behind a computer. I've always agreed that a catamaran is more stable at anchor and in mild seas, but when the SHTF... Give me a solid mono any day.. I'll even pass on the newest flagship Gunfleet. :-)
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The sea-kindliness of these multihull craft is being rediscovered every day. Continual experiences with sightseeing boats, fast ferries, pleasure, commercial, and military applications are all proving the validity of the multihull form. What many people forget about a smooth ride in a heavy sea is that it is very much a function of weight in addition to hull shape. The more weight a vessel has, the more form resistance it offers to moving thru the ocean, the more the sea acts to resist the vessel's progress thru the sea, and thus the more uncomfortable ride and we must slow down. A big headsea is a particular challenge. Heavy boats carry their momentum into each trough and crest in a battle with the sea, while lighter weight vessels with slender hulls slice through with less battering. Modern materials allow for lighter boats and we must properly distribute the vessel's weight throughout the long slender hulls. Following seas tend to pick up broad sterns and slew a vessel off to either side of a straight course. The catamaran hull form does not have these broad sterns.
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Old 08-11-2015, 14:30   #523
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Good post Monte..avoiding greasy food is a good idea and always keep a full stomach as empty stomachs are much easier to upset.
I always found that crackers and peanut butter 'glued' things together just enough.
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Old 08-11-2015, 14:37   #524
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

A full stomach definitely makes a difference. Bonine is also a great help with seasickness.
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Old 08-11-2015, 14:59   #525
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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As a liveaboard, we consider our boat our house (and so does the IRS), our dinghy our car, our TV is larger than the one we owned back on land (but still very small), and we do enjoy daily showers - sometimes several per day.

But I do agree that our carbon and resource consumption footprint is smaller now than when we lived on land. It cannot be otherwise. Particularly if one lives on land where AC and heat are necessary, and no public or manual transportation is suitable for getting to work.

The few hundred gallons of diesel and gasoline we burn each year is far less than what we burned on land. In the winter, we burned 100-200gal of diesel each month just heating a small house during the winter. And around 300gal of gasoline feeding a small Honda doing 10,000 miles/yr. And that is a low land footprint compared to those with much larger houses and more yearly mileage on cars.

Mark
Sailing could be a good recommended way of living and moving around for summer holidays, for retired people, and for people who can take their work with them in the boat. The fact that people do not have continuous access to the perceived unlimited resources of fuel, electricity, water, shopping malls and garbage cans certainly influences the way they use these resources.
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