Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-07-2015, 08:54   #331
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

In foul weather on a cat or mono we are always more comfortable and usually always faster upwind under sail. Just looking at either motoring upwind into swell makes me seasick I've always gotten seasick pretty easily. Seemed it was always my job to head below and pack the chute after the DW leg, usually reappearing at the companionway green. As a rough guide in those conditions I'd say we would have a choice of motoring into it at around 3-4 kn, with. Both engines at 2600 (wot is 3200), burning 10l/hr of diesel, or sailing with a similar VMG, and SOG of 6-8kn more comfortably. We always choose to sail (not just because I'm cheap )
We wouldn't be cooking or making a cuppa, although I have had crew less prone to seasickness that don't seem too phased by cooking in bad conditions. I would be at the helm focusing on sailing and not getting seasick, or resting in the cockpit if conditions and crew permit. I usually avoid filling in the log book as even a few minutes with my eyes off the horizon can start a seasickness that takes an hour or more to recover from. In the past in such conditions we have back up plans. Once we returned to our departure port and sailed the next day because we realised we would be flogging into it all day and arriving after midnight in an unknown port. A few times we have picked a closer anchorage or port than planned. Once we hove too for half a day. Usually we just suck it up and try to enjoy the ride.
I don't think passage planning for cats or monos should be any different, with the priority on safety of the vessel and crew and enough back up plans to cover most unforeseen circumstances. Some sailors aren't phased by strong winds and big waves, some like to stay in port till the forecast is under 10kn and flat seas so they can motor. All are different and it's more about the sailors attitude than the mode of transport.
__________________

__________________
monte is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 09:04   #332
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,135
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
In foul weather on a cat or mono we are always more comfortable and usually always faster upwind under sail. Just looking at either motoring upwind into swell makes me seasick I've always gotten seasick pretty easily.
We wouldn't be cooking or making a cuppa, although I have had crew less prone to seasickness that don't seem too phased by cooking in bad conditions. I would be at the helm focusing on sailing and not getting seasick, or resting in the cockpit if conditions and crew permit. I usually avoid filling in the log book as even a few minutes with my eyes off the horizon can start a seasickness that takes an hour or more to recover from. In the past in such conditions we have back up plans. Once we returned to our departure port and sailed the next day because we realised we would be flogging into it all day and arriving after midnight in an unknown port. A few times we have picked a closer anchorage or port than planned. Once we hove too for half a day. Usually we just suck it up and try to enjoy the ride.
I don't think passage planning for cats or monos should be any different, with the priority on safety of the vessel and crew and enough back up plans to cover most unforeseen circumstances. Some sailors aren't phased by strong winds and big waves, some like to stay in port till the forecast is under 10kn and flat seas so they can motor. All are different and it's more about the sailors attitude than the mode of transport.
I have no problem making hot drinks in any weather.......

Again, I did say we skipped lunch.......

The discussion here, to keep it on track, is whether or not a CAT can handle the type of weather Ken was in. Not pleasant and not comfortable.

I assert that a CAT can do it and do it well. my experience formed that opinion. Im not prone to seasickness in that type of motion. When sick, everything is not good.

Again, you are not dealing with a rectangle and high windage. You are dealing with two blades with gap under the middle bit and a sail configuration above. IT no longer is a brick.
__________________

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 09:11   #333
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Personally, I just can't figure out how a rectangular object with significant windage can punch holes through waves and wind better than a pointed object. Please tell us?
Using your logic and reasoning, a trimaran would fair even worse, since it is basically a square.

Your failure in reasoning and logic is due to your inexperience and desire to generalize to fit your world-view.

Please consider the following pictures of a Hans Christian monohull (a desired "BWB") and a similar length Schionning catamaran (a desired cruising cat). Tell us about their relative windage and ability to punch holes through waves.

Yes, I know you can find pictures showing the opposite, and they will fit your world-view better, but the reality is that everything you have posted on this thread has been a vast generalization born out of ignorance of half of the subject you are expounding on.

BTW, who wants to "punch holes through waves"?

Mark
Attached Images
  
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 09:13   #334
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,135
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Love the look of the Schionning.

Gorgeous even.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 10:51   #335
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Using your logic and reasoning, a trimaran would fair even worse, since it is basically a square.

Your failure in reasoning and logic is due to your inexperience and desire to generalize to fit your world-view.

Please consider the following pictures of a Hans Christian monohull (a desired "BWB") and a similar length Schionning catamaran (a desired cruising cat). Tell us about their relative windage and ability to punch holes through waves.

Yes, I know you can find pictures showing the opposite, and they will fit your world-view better, but the reality is that everything you have posted on this thread has been a vast generalization born out of ignorance of half of the subject you are expounding on.

BTW, who wants to "punch holes through waves"?

Mark
Sometimes us Neaderthals are forced into situations where we must punch holes through large steep waves in order to get to a safe anchorage near our coastal caves.

Still no personal experiences to add to this discussion I see other than putting down us dumbasses.

Monte posted a very informative post about the times he needs to punch through... And fight seasickness, good to know I'm not the only one. :-)

Monte,

One thing I can recommend is Bonine taken early, one hour prior to departure. It didn't work for me on Sunday because I took the medication after the seasickness was well underway, but not a hint of nausea on Monday. It could have also been due to slightly different conditions.
__________________
Kenomac is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 11:38   #336
med
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 186
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Sometimes us Neaderthals are forced into situations where we must punch holes through large steep waves in order to get to a safe anchorage near our coastal caves.

Still no personal experiences to add to this discussion I see other than putting down us dumbasses.

Monte posted a very informative post about the times he needs to punch through... And fight seasickness, good to know I'm not the only one. :-)

Monte,

One thing I can recommend is Bonine taken early, one hour prior to departure. It didn't work for me on Sunday because I took the medication after the seasickness was well underway, but not a hint of nausea on Monday. It could have also been due to slightly different conditions.
I would just add that heading into a F8 in choppy seas in the med is pretty nasty in any boat. It is also pretty slow as you keep ploughing the bow or bows right into the middle of the waves and slowing right down on each and every wave. And they come really close together.

3-4 knots is the best I can manage under those conditions - either under sail (double reef main, storm jib, storm stay sail) or under power (85HP at full throttle). Added to that the 2 knot current around the headland I need to get past, along with the rain and it makes for long and thoroughly miserable passage.

The passage would be just as miserable in a catamaran - it would be ploughing into the back of the waves in exactly the same way and its bridge deck would be slamming in a way to encourage all your fillings to fall out.

In the middle of a real ocean, heading into an F8 is a lot more confortable than doing it in the med even though of course the height of the waves is actually a lot bigger. Also you will go a lot faster as you won't have the front half of the boat stuck in the back of a wave nearly so often.

Those short sharp seas we get in the med are much nastier than almost anything you will find elsewhere.

Now going the other direction in the same conditions is absolutely terrific. Just the stay sail up, 10 knots (ok 2knots of those are probably the current), and riding along like a magic carpet. Not even getting the deck wet. (And mother in law preparing a complex cordon blue meal in the galley).

A cat I would expect to be also confortable in those conditions as well although I have never been in one down hill in a F8 nor have I ever seen one in those conditions either.

Actually I have only ever seen one other mono hull and a fishing boat in those conditions (even in the middle of August it is amazing how everyone disappears when the wind blows a little bit).
med is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 11:50   #337
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,311
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

I don't understand how this thread keeps going. But I'll add that maybe the reason cats motor is the same as monos, it's because people are lazy. I was sailing along the other day doing 6.5 knots and noticed lots of boats (monos) motoring. I thought this weird because I was sailing about as fast as I can motor and the other boats were basically on the same course as I was. I've noticed over the year that this isn't all that uncommon.

At the same time I find motoring sailboats less confusing than boats that are 6 miles from port on a course that will take at least a couple more hours to get to any other port, but are only sailing on their head sail. But I'm sure overall that falls into the same lazy issue as being the root cause.

There may be another factor that goes with the lazy factor, money. Maybe if some have enough money to have gotten a fancy cat or mono fuel costs matter less and they just are going to motor because it is too much work to take the sail cover off, hoist the sail, fold the sail back up, put the cover back on; when all they want to do is move 4 hours away to another spot.

At the same time it really doesn't matter to me one little bit what others decide to do on their boat!
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 12:05   #338
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
In foul weather on a cat or mono we are always more comfortable and usually always faster upwind under sail. Just looking at either motoring upwind into swell makes me seasick I've always gotten seasick pretty easily. Seemed it was always my job to head below and pack the chute after the DW leg, usually reappearing at the companionway green.
I just noticed that you're a new moderator, congratulations.

Since we both suffer from seasickness, would you say that I would be equally sick on your boat as I was the other day on our boat? Boy, I wished that I'd anticipated the big swells coming from the side and taken the medication early. Fortunately, my wife was much less effected and was able to navigate until I recovered around eight hours later.

I hate throwing up, but I'm not quite ready to spend a fortune switching to a cat just to avoid getting sick once every three years.

Ken
__________________
Kenomac is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 12:15   #339
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,764
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by med View Post
I would just add that heading into a F8 in choppy seas in the med is pretty nasty in any boat. It is also pretty slow as you keep ploughing the bow or bows right into the middle of the waves and slowing right down on each and every wave. And they come really close together.

3-4 knots is the best I can manage under those conditions - either under sail (double reef main, storm jib, storm stay sail) or under power (85HP at full throttle). Added to that the 2 knot current around the headland I need to get past, along with the rain and it makes for long and thoroughly miserable passage.

The passage would be just as miserable in a catamaran - it would be ploughing into the back of the waves in exactly the same way and its bridge deck would be slamming in a way to encourage all your fillings to fall out.

In the middle of a real ocean, heading into an F8 is a lot more confortable than doing it in the med even though of course the height of the waves is actually a lot bigger. Also you will go a lot faster as you won't have the front half of the boat stuck in the back of a wave nearly so often.

Those short sharp seas we get in the med are much nastier than almost anything you will find elsewhere.

Now going the other direction in the same conditions is absolutely terrific. Just the stay sail up, 10 knots (ok 2knots of those are probably the current), and riding along like a magic carpet. Not even getting the deck wet. (And mother in law preparing a complex cordon blue meal in the galley).

A cat I would expect to be also confortable in those conditions as well although I have never been in one down hill in a F8 nor have I ever seen one in those conditions either.

Actually I have only ever seen one other mono hull and a fishing boat in those conditions (even in the middle of August it is amazing how everyone disappears when the wind blows a little bit).
Good post. I agree with it.

Yes it is much nicer a f8 on the Atlantic than on the Med, at least far away from the shore.

The boats that would suffer less on those conditions are upwind maximized boats, a dying species since it requires fine entries and a narrow hull and that means a much smaller cruising interior,

After those the ones that will go better (size for size) would be relatively narrow performance cruisers, They are normally narrower than slower cruising boats and they have much finer entries and forward sections and that is even more important than the max beam of the boat.

I have one of those and on those conditions I can make 6 or 6.5K but it is not comfortable at all. If I reduce the speed to the one you can make I would have a much more comfortable motion.

I believe cats because they have two hulls and will catch the same wave two times will be a bit less comfortable than monohulls on those conditions and a bit less efficient but, as on the monohulls, fine entries and narrow hulls will be of the essence in what regards a better performance and a more comfortable ride. A fat monohull can be on those conditions more uncomfortable than a performance cat with narrow hulls.

But basically and according with what you say I believe that any small boat (less than 80ft or so) will be very uncomfortable on those conditions especially if it is sailing at the max speed it can sail and nobody in his right mind will be there, on the Med, sailing upwind on a force 8 on a small sailingboat, at least not by choice.
Polux is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 12:16   #340
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,425
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Sometimes us Neaderthals are forced into situations where we must punch holes through large steep waves in order to get to a safe anchorage near our coastal caves.

Still no personal experiences to add to this discussion I see other than putting down us dumbasses.
A conversation based in denigration doesn't deserve to hear personal experiences. What would it serve? To equip you with even more fodder to use against others?

Why do you care? Questioning your choice of boat? Or trying to make others feel as bad as you do about their choice?
__________________
DotDun is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 14:08   #341
Registered User
 
mark_morwood's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cruising (Atlantic -> Med -> Carib -> Pacific)
Boat: Vancouver 36, Hobie 33, Catana 48, now all with new owners
Posts: 205
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Let's begin again.

Can anyone share foul weather experiences on catamarans? How do they handle under power or sail?

Spiv wrote an informed post at little earlier... How about another?
I'm not sure I'd call it foul weather but in 2013 we had a pretty unpleasant passage from Bermuda to the Azores in our Catana 48. The weather patterns were a little different that year and it was upwind all the way with winds ranging from 10 to 30 knots, with about 3 days consistently around 30 knots.

We sailed all the way except the last 20 miles, when we all just wanted to make sure we got in before dark that day so we pointed the boat straight upwind and motored to Flores. The motoring was slow but direct!

The trip was not very pleasant but we were still having cooked meals without holding everything down. The motion is different to a mono-hull - more jerky but less roll. Having sailed in company with a Discovery 55 (which is quite similar to your boat) of and on for the last 10,000 miles I will comment that they are often getting water over the bows, when we are quite dry. Our catamaran certainly rides over a lot of stuff that equivalent speed monohulls seem to plough through. Not to say that we aren't also getting bounced around - its just different. And interestingly we have come in within half a day of each other on all the major crossings between Spain and French Polynesia. We are a bit faster in light airs, they are a bit faster, or we slow down earlier, in heavy airs.

I understand that you wouldn't want to be on a catamaran in similar circumstances to the ones you were in for that short passage, but I think if you tried it on a similar sized catamaran you might be very surprised to find it felt different but at least as equally comfortable and secure as on your boat. And you'd probably still be able to leave your glass on the table! :-)

Mark.
__________________
mark_morwood is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 14:19   #342
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New York
Boat: FP, Eleuthera 60
Posts: 277
Images: 4
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Kenomac, cross the Atlantic on an ocean going cat and you'll never go back to a mono
__________________
MIRELOS is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 14:42   #343
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_morwood View Post
I'm not sure I'd call it foul weather but in 2013 we had a pretty unpleasant passage from Bermuda to the Azores in our Catana 48. The weather patterns were a little different that year and it was upwind all the way with winds ranging from 10 to 30 knots, with about 3 days consistently around 30 knots.

We sailed all the way except the last 20 miles, when we all just wanted to make sure we got in before dark that day so we pointed the boat straight upwind and motored to Flores. The motoring was slow but direct!

The trip was not very pleasant but we were still having cooked meals without holding everything down. The motion is different to a mono-hull - more jerky but less roll. Having sailed in company with a Discovery 55 (which is quite similar to your boat) of and on for the last 10,000 miles I will comment that they are often getting water over the bows, when we are quite dry. Our catamaran certainly rides over a lot of stuff that equivalent speed monohulls seem to plough through. Not to say that we aren't also getting bounced around - its just different. And interestingly we have come in within half a day of each other on all the major crossings between Spain and French Polynesia. We are a bit faster in light airs, they are a bit faster, or we slow down earlier, in heavy airs.

I understand that you wouldn't want to be on a catamaran in similar circumstances to the ones you were in for that short passage, but I think if you tried it on a similar sized catamaran you might be very surprised to find it felt different but at least as equally comfortable and secure as on your boat. And you'd probably still be able to leave your glass on the table! :-)

Mark.
Thanks Mark, this is exactly the kind of informed post which helps folks decide, and I appreciate. I've been on a Catana... Nice boat.

Ken
__________________
Kenomac is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 14:44   #344
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

One thing is for certain in this whole thread---- we will never, and I mean never, see that video.
__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline  
Old 28-07-2015, 14:45   #345
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I just noticed that you're a new moderator, congratulations.

Since we both suffer from seasickness, would you say that I would be equally sick on your boat as I was the other day on our boat? Boy, I wished that I'd anticipated the big swells coming from the side and taken the medication early. Fortunately, my wife was much less effected and was able to navigate until I recovered around eight hours later.

I hate throwing up, but I'm not quite ready to spend a fortune switching to a cat just to avoid getting sick once every three years.

Ken

I haven't been seasick for a while. The last time was in a gale off the canaries last November and it wasn't too bad as we hove to and relaxed through the worst of it. Maybe I'm acclimatising more to the motion of the ocean, but I'm still proactive to avoid it by keeping my head up, focusing on sailing and avoiding head down jobs like cooking or navigating as much as possible. Jen has moments of seasickness but they always seem to be the opposite timing of mine. We have some different seasick tablets on board as well as acupressure bands, but haven't felt the need to use them for over a year. The acupressure bands work well, but how much is a placebo effect I'm not sure. My mother used to press on the pressure point in my wrist when I was car sick as a kid and it seemed to work, so it's not a new age marketing ploy (maybe an old age one) Working hard to reef or deal with difficult situations also raises a sweat and brings on seasickness easier. Some say fear and trepidation are a major cause and once they are more comfortable with sailing and not trying to control every situation, the seasickness becomes less of a problem.
For me, sailing is much less likely to bring on seasickness than motoring or even lying a hull. Anticipating the motion of the boat helps a lot, so actively helming, or at least sitting at the helm under AP and knowing when the boat will lift or surf on a wave works best for me. That or laying down with eyes closed so there's no conflicting information between brain and eyes.
__________________

__________________
monte is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
catamaran, motor

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
500: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk Erik C Lagoon Catamarans 216 28-10-2013 18:47
For Sale: Balmar 100-Amp Alternator (Model 60-100-SR-IG) synchronicity98 Classifieds Archive 0 24-05-2013 18:34
Does the "100" in a "Masters 100 ton" mean anything? twistedtree Seamanship & Boat Handling 7 06-03-2013 19:14
Boat, Nearly New, Just Needs a Little Gelcoat Work ... ad_astra Off Topic Forum 4 29-08-2009 13:21
Nearly Lost Rig! Damage to Forestay from Furler? Northeaster Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 14 25-05-2009 09:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.