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Old 04-09-2012, 20:30   #46
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

I think the problem is more that anyone buying a boat in this price range is likely experienced enough in business to have had interaction with how things are often done in China and why one does it. One does it because it is cheap.

Those Asian Cars you prefer are made in Japan and Korea, NOT China. Premium products can definitely be assembled in China, but whatever rhetoric one can put on the reasons why, the manufacturer will no doubt get bored with having to answer the question. Its just a question of can the quality be delivered, and is the additional profit margin vs constructing elsewhere worth the hassle.

It of course helps if you are trying to sell the boats to Korea, Japan and China - then its a no-brainer.
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Old 04-09-2012, 20:43   #47
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

If Ferraris were made in China would you still want one?
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Old 04-09-2012, 20:53   #48
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

Thanks everyone for all of the comments, and sorry it took me so long to discover this forum. Especially appreciate the positive comments and thoughtful questions that lead to sharing info. I do not appreciate the gratuitous negativity that is based solely on opinion or judgement from people that have not spent the time to really know us or our Gunboats.

The new bows on the newer Nigel Irens designed Gunboats have been done to reduce windage, reduce drag when pressed into the water, and to reduce weight. There is a noticeable difference in handling at low speeds under power. The bows do not get blown around so much as the older style bows. The windage reduction is the equivalent of pulling away two sheets of plywood being held up. That is a lot of windage reduction. In a seaway, there is noticeably less pitching moment versus our earlier boats, which were already noticeably better than the market.

China is a place of wonder today. Am sorry to hear of some close-minded opinions/judgements. A Mercedes Benz or BMW built in China is every bit as good as their German built counterparts. The labor force is diligent and easily trained. The labor is excellent at producing a consistently excellent finish and quality. We endured the same naysayers and bigotry when we first started producing in South Africa. Our results shined through that BS. There are good people in every country, and it is up to how you manage it. We do not permit any corners to be cut. All of the raw materials are from the US or Europe. Everything is done to Gunboat's world leading standard. The Gunboat 60 is among our best work yet. We are proud of the result. We will get a similar excellent result from our US yard with the Gunboat 55 series. We have two very discerning customers from Germany amongst the first owners of Gunboat 60's.
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Old 04-09-2012, 23:54   #49
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

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If Ferraris were made in China would you still want one?
Of course ... you know Fiat owns Ferrari. And Fiats are even crappier then US cars ... :-) ... besides you have no idea how "crappy" Ferraris are built - needs a lot of maintenance. If talking about quality then lets go for a german sportscar.

My point is - it's all about quality assurance (and that is costly) and nothing else. Look at the electronics industry - I would say the stuff from China is pretty reliable.

I have the impression some folks (especially US) have some funny feelings re Chinese products - very understandable. But I guess it would be better to get back to the front row again instead of bashing other nationalities.

All in all - I would buy a GB made in China with a ISO certification and lets say 10 years of warranty.
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Old 04-09-2012, 23:56   #50
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

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The new bows on the newer Nigel Irens designed Gunboats have been done to reduce windage, reduce drag when pressed into the water, and to reduce weight. There is a noticeable difference in handling at low speeds under power. The bows do not get blown around so much as the older style bows. The windage reduction is the equivalent of pulling away two sheets of plywood being held up. That is a lot of windage reduction. In a seaway, there is noticeably less pitching moment versus our earlier boats, which were already noticeably better than the market.
Ok - very functional design. Chapeau !
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:08   #51
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

The only disadvantage that I can think of with a Chinese made boat is at selling time I guess, but only to a closeminded buyer who does not know the product. Yes, people tend to choose Japanese cars as an alternate to German ones today but 40 years ago, Japanese products were taken as crap as well, just like Chinese products are taken today.

And if we're talking about the negative effect of the production facilities location, what to say about outremer? If they produced their boats in -let's say Germany- wouldn't they be more attractive just because you wouldn't put them in the same place with the general French built bathtub sailboats on charter fleets (the past ones of course, the new Lagoons are quite attractive actually!).

If a boat is bulletproof strong, fast, comfortable, sexy and built as promised, those are the qualifications that you pay the extra millions over the first dollar. And if Chinese products are that crap, I should remind you that China was one of the biggest luxury product matufacturers from artisans for many centuries, like silk or china...
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:31   #52
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

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Of course ... you know Fiat owns Ferrari. And Fiats are even crappier then US cars ... :-) ... besides you have no idea how "crappy" Ferraris are built - needs a lot of maintenance. If talking about quality then lets go for a german sportscar.
I think here you make the point I was trying to make. You have used two common perceptions (Fiat is crap, German engineering is good) in an argument on "China quality". The point is this is not a rational argument, the perception is there now that quality in China isn't very good like it was with Japanese cars 40 years ago (when they in that case were in fact crap).

This is a question Peter will have to a) keep answering and b) have to demonstrate a better and higher quality product to dispel this perception than if the boat were made elsewhere. That's just a market reality for him.

That and he is building in the IP theft capital of the world, don't be surprised to see a "Ganboat" being made in China in a few years time
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:31   #53
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

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Originally Posted by Peter.Johnstone View Post
Thanks everyone for all of the comments, and sorry it took me so long to discover this forum. Especially appreciate the positive comments and thoughtful questions that lead to sharing info. I do not appreciate the gratuitous negativity that is based solely on opinion or judgement from people that have not spent the time to really know us or our Gunboats.

The new bows on the newer Nigel Irens designed Gunboats have been done to reduce windage, reduce drag when pressed into the water, and to reduce weight. There is a noticeable difference in handling at low speeds under power. The bows do not get blown around so much as the older style bows. The windage reduction is the equivalent of pulling away two sheets of plywood being held up. That is a lot of windage reduction. In a seaway, there is noticeably less pitching moment versus our earlier boats, which were already noticeably better than the market.

China is a place of wonder today. Am sorry to hear of some close-minded opinions/judgements. A Mercedes Benz or BMW built in China is every bit as good as their German built counterparts. The labor force is diligent and easily trained. The labor is excellent at producing a consistently excellent finish and quality. We endured the same naysayers and bigotry when we first started producing in South Africa. Our results shined through that BS. There are good people in every country, and it is up to how you manage it. We do not permit any corners to be cut. All of the raw materials are from the US or Europe. Everything is done to Gunboat's world leading standard. The Gunboat 60 is among our best work yet. We are proud of the result. We will get a similar excellent result from our US yard with the Gunboat 55 series. We have two very discerning customers from Germany amongst the first owners of Gunboat 60's.

Hallo Peter, I would like to compliment you on your beautiful designed and manufactured cats. you are setting a example for the Cat Industry. I also know how hard it is to judge one boat to another and specifically weights from one to the other.
Between a bare sail away boat and a fully equipped version can be 30 % weight difference.

Keep up the good work

Gideon
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:33   #54
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

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The only disadvantage that I can think of with a Chinese made boat is at selling time I guess, but only to a closeminded buyer who does not know the product.
That is why you gotta have a ISO cert and many years of warranty - that is a "proof" of quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MehmetCan View Post
Yes, people tend to choose Japanese cars as an alternate to German ones today but 40 years ago, Japanese products were taken as crap as well, just like Chinese products are taken today.
But these cars were copied and manufactured all by the Japanese.

You have to differentiate between designed and manufactured in China or designed XY and manufactured in China with QA.

Again open your computer - 99% is made in China and it works !

And yes - nobody badmouths iPhones or iPads, but guess what, who made it ?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MehmetCan View Post
And if we're talking about the negative effect of the production facilities location, what to say about outremer? If they produced their boats in -let's say Germany- wouldn't they be more attractive just because you wouldn't put them in the same place with the general French built bathtub sailboats on charter fleets (the past ones of course, the new Lagoons are quite attractive actually!).
That is what I want to point out - it doesnt matter where it is built, the QA is relevant. Lagoon will always "fire" (sell) and forget. It's part of their business model cause they are able to sell so many boats.
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:45   #55
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

Zonker, we just keep saying the same things... And if "stereotypes" are the way to go, the first customer for the GB60 is a German IT guy, can you go more engineered than that!?!?!
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:07   #56
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter.Johnstone View Post
Thanks everyone for all of the comments, and sorry it took me so long to discover this forum. Especially appreciate the positive comments and thoughtful questions that lead to sharing info. I do not appreciate the gratuitous negativity that is based solely on opinion or judgement from people that have not spent the time to really know us or our Gunboats.

China is a place of wonder today. Am sorry to hear of some close-minded opinions/judgements. A Mercedes Benz or BMW built in China is every bit as good as their German built counterparts. The labor force is diligent and easily trained. The labor is excellent at producing a consistently excellent finish and quality. We endured the same naysayers and bigotry when we first started producing in South Africa. Our results shined through that BS. There are good people in every country, and it is up to how you manage it. We do not permit any corners to be cut. All of the raw materials are from the US or Europe. Everything is done to Gunboat's world leading standard. The Gunboat 60 is among our best work yet. We are proud of the result. We will get a similar excellent result from our US yard with the Gunboat 55 series. We have two very discerning customers from Germany amongst the first owners of Gunboat 60's.
Welcome Peter. I think you are brave posting on this forum but admire you for stating your case and sticking to your convictions. I don't post a lot also because of the reasons you stated - naysayers, knockers, lots of opinions but not a lot of substance. More so than any other forum I am a member of...... however, there are also a lot of genuine, helpful and knowledgeable sailors here so I persevere and read more than I post....

Gunboats are beautifully designed and built vessels and have a reputation for quality. I'm sure you wouldn't risk everything you have built up with the Gunboat brand on a poor decision to build in China just to save money. Obviously, the cheaper labour is a factor - the same reason why just about every other world company manufactures in China; but there is much more to it.

We all need to get used to the fact that China is an emerging economic super power and get past our past prejudices.

Good luck with your enterprise. If I could afford one, I would have no problem in buying a Chinese manufactured Gunboat.......
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:53   #57
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

There is the hypocricy of building a cruising boat where one is virtually forbidden to cruise. I read the story of one cruiser who attempted and accomplished a cruise in Chinese waters but I don't think many are lining up for the same aggravation. How do GBs leave there anyway?
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:23   #58
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

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There is the hypocricy of building a cruising boat where one is virtually forbidden to cruise. I read the story of one cruiser who attempted and accomplished a cruise in Chinese waters but I don't think many are lining up for the same aggravation. How do GBs leave there anyway?
I don't know if that's true or not. However, I do know that there are racist jack-asses all around the world badmouth countries that they hate. Not that I blame you or anything -or want to offend in any way, but are you sure about your facts?
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:05   #59
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

I know I'm the one to open this thread and it's more vibrant than I could possibly imagine. However, I just found the answer of my question in the video below, forget outremer, GB60 all the way!

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Old 05-09-2012, 09:24   #60
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Re: Why Choose Gunboat 60 Over Outremer 5X?

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I don't know if that's true or not. However, I do know that there are racist jack-asses all around the world badmouth countries that they hate. Not that I blame you or anything -or want to offend in any way, but are you sure about your facts?
Click on some of these articles and see if you want to cruise there.
Noonsite: China
Really, the racist comment was out of line. How do you make that leap? It's not the chinese people it's their goverment and it's policy that many have issues with. And one cannot deny that some chinese made goods have inferior quality. It's been well documented in these forums that the wire rope, fittings and misc. pieces for boats were not up to snuff. There was something about a chinese made mast that failed but we never got the details. Even Mr. Johnstone says he will use equipment from sources outside China.

However, I am 100% positive that the GB 60 will be an excellent boat that will perform as expected. It is damn good looking too.
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