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Old 13-02-2010, 19:21   #46
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I've been on Walking on Water, and everything he says is true.
While anchored, sitting on their bridgedeck surrounded by a great view (behind flexible plastic windows when it's cold) is something I can really appreciate.
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Old 13-02-2010, 23:15   #47
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For me, having the space and interior sight lines of up to 15' really gives my boat an advantage. I don't feel cramped. That's not true on all multihulls though. Some are everybit as cramped as a monohull down below.
And some mono's aren't cramped. I have a 14 ft beam in my 41'6" pilothouse. At the transition from pilothouse to salon I have a 9' ceiling. I have to say I like so many of the boats I see - even motor cruisers! I do think it's a case of what suits you and what you want to do with it as well as your budget and what you find when you are shopping!
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Old 14-02-2010, 02:54   #48
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Will be able to give some good input on the subject in a couple of months. After having owned and chartered monohuls our next adventures will include a Lagoon 380. We really have no idea how it will be. Judging from photo's we will have a lot of space.
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Old 14-02-2010, 05:14   #49
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Actually your yard bill would be higher then our yard bill. We take 915 sq ft whereas you'll take 943 sq ft.

But you like your boat, we like our boat so it's all good.

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It's always predictable to read a cat vs mono thread but I like it anyway. I will say that as a cat owner, my biggest concern is actually finding a slip not that it will cost more. In fact, it really doesn't. I don't think I've ever been charged more for being wide. I have been aced out of marinas though because I was too wide. I deal with it.

Windward ability? Well, here's the deal. I'm set up to point high like most boats. But what I CAN do, I don't do. It just 'feels' (and is) slower than dropping off 5-7 degrees and footing faster. I've got nice deep daggerboards with 7' board down draft so leeway isn't an issue. The deal here is that an extra tack doesn't bother me. My jib is (almost) self tacking and there's no real additional labor to tack a couple more times. I'm not uncomfortable, so if it takes more tacks, it's not big deal. Light airs? yeah, I'm a bit slower than the same size monohull, it's just a matter of more wetted surface. At least I maneuver and sail well in light airs but just not racer performance. Again, if I spend time sailing, I'm still not uncomfortable, cold or hungry.

I used to own an F-28 trimaran and marvel at being able to cover 30-35 miles in an afternoon sail. Hah! Take that you monohullers.... then I realized that we'd both spent a fun afternoon sailing for 3-4 hours. Mileage didn't matter. Mileage can matter when you're trying to cover distance but the reality is that if the winds are light, you'll motor anyway and if they're not, then you've got great sailing. The only time the speed difference can kick in is if you've got a large distance to travel AND a consistent wind. If it's light half the day, it won't matter which type of sailboat you're in. Besides, on a good day, I'm usually a bit sad that I got in so quick and ended up cutting my sailing time short. Que sera, sera!

Money is an issue for me. I don't like to spend it! That's why I didn't by a 50'er. We all buy within our price range. If a cat is in that range, then great. I sure wouldn't want the yard bill of a 60' monohull either. (but maaan, Joli, how I lusted after that C&C 61 when it first came out!) But I can handle (for now) the yard bill for my 40' cat.

For me, having the space and interior sight lines of up to 15' really gives my boat an advantage. I don't feel cramped. That's not true on all multihulls though. Some are everybit as cramped as a monohull down below.

Oh, there is one disadvantage of my multihull! Guilt! I often hesitate to show off the boat to a monohull couple. The look on the wife's face as she see's the galley (14 linear feet) and sits in a comfy chair on the bridgedeck while surveying the anchorage, is one that tells me maybe I just messed up a beautiful relationship when she discovered that there is another way to sail!

Your decision will be made based on your own preferences and wallet, may you enjoy whatever craft you sail in and I'll gladly lift a glass with you in a snug anchorage.
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Old 14-02-2010, 05:19   #50
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OK, since you asked, no they don't go to windward. LOL

Actually the only time I've ever seen a cat go to windward is on a race course when they had to sail the course. Other wise it seems to painfull so they just motor.

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No one has mentioned they wont go to windward yet.

And I love those - a cat flipped stories, A few months ago a mono hit a rock here and there were two deaths, your point??
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Old 14-02-2010, 05:44   #51
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Nope - cant get within 170 degrees of the wind - its true
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Old 14-02-2010, 05:46   #52
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But you motor well with two engines!

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Nope - cant get within 170 degrees of the wind - its true
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Old 14-02-2010, 07:01   #53
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OK, since you asked, no they don't go to windward. LOL

Actually the only time I've ever seen a cat go to windward is on a race course when they had to sail the course. Other wise it seems to painfull so they just motor.
Sure they go to windward--- heck, even the clipper ship Flying Cloud was a relative rocket to windward for her times....

Honestly? Like I said, it might take another couple tacks but the crew won't be gritting their teeth and hanging on praying that the captain comes to his senses and turns around....

Wait, that's not true in 30+ knots but it sure is in 20. The crew just goes and makes another cappucino and dozes in the sun on the aft cockpit settee while the good ship Lollipop makes 8.5 knots to weather.
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Old 14-02-2010, 08:29   #54
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Is this fairly representative (though I know enough by now to understand no one wants to state or agree to generalities )?

Quote:
Catamaran VS Trimaran Talbot: Trimaran, better to windward, but not as good off the wind. Normally has a lot less space inside than an equivalent cat. Need a LOT more looking after in bad weather. most have dagger boards, and in survival conditions, it is not just the dagger board that can trip the tri, but it has also happened that the small hull has itself acted as the trip.

Catamaran - much better as a cruising boat due to the much larger space. PDQ are well worth a look . Manta are also good. There are a number that have problems so you need to seek advice based on specific make. Gemini make a nice boat but its more performance orientated and has dagger boards - which have no place on a short handed crew live-aboard.
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Old 14-02-2010, 08:45   #55
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Jaywalker, essentially yes. The whole 'tripping' issue is a discussion that I won't enter into as it is a pet issue here for some. Otherwise probably not so far off the mark. Windward ability is all over the map depending on design (performance vs comfort for example) Here are two things to keep in mind though.

Often windward ability is a function of headstay tension and also of underwater appendages. High aspect appendages such as dagger/center boards, provide better leeway resistance than shallow keels. Tri's tend to have them more consistently than cats mostly because when one goes for a tri, they are more interested in performance than space.

One other issue but one that is not too apparent on a cruising cat. Even if a cat, or tri or mono can all effectively trim to say a 35 degree apparent wind angle. The simple fact remains that the fastest of the three will be heading further off the wind. It's a simple vector thing. Couple this with the fact that the lightest one is most likely the one to be knocked more too leeward by sea action. Then factor in the increased windage of most cruising cats. The cat is the one that suffers the most from headstay tension (lack thereof), light weight,windage and often less than ideal underwater shapes. Hence the reduced reputation for windward ability.

There are exceptions in every category. YMMV.
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Old 14-02-2010, 13:32   #56
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I am a production cruising cat 35foot and I do as well to windward as similar size monos, the deeper the keel the better they do, but I find in our clubs social racing that something like a catalina , bavaria, hunter etc will not out point me.
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Old 14-02-2010, 13:59   #57
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OK, since you asked, no they don't go to windward. LOL

Actually the only time I've ever seen a cat go to windward is on a race course when they had to sail the course. Other wise it seems to painfull so they just motor.
In the recent Kingfisher bay regatta, School's Out, a fulltime liveaboard Oram 44C, with genset, aircon, washing machine, microwave oven etc etc etc, was racing in the cruising division (no spinnakers) and repeatedly passed a purpose built 40' racing monohull on the windward legs, while the mono would get in front again on the downwind legs using it's spinnaker.

It depends on the cat. Some don't go to windward well at all, but some do, even better than the very best monohull can. (AC 1988)
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Old 14-02-2010, 14:38   #58
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Pretty well stated, lot's of factors to consider. Here's one, BOR sailed today, upwind vmg is 13. Very quick but that is a purpose built 110 foot tri.

I find it dificult to get polars for many multis and when they are found it is based on big wind in flat water sailed as light ship. Huh? That's not how we sail. We load the boats with gear, food, fuel and water.

Take something like a Gunboat 48. They raced the Caribbean 600 with very good sailors on board sailing a mostly reaching course, winds in the high teens/low 20 and averaged ahem cough 9? That speed is nowhere near the polars published. Why? Waves and payload.

Look at rally results or blogs and you typically see 47 foot cats averaging 7, same as a 47 foot mono.

Space, hands down for the multi. Speed, it's a toss up, cruising boats seem to sail to waterline, offshore capable racing boats are a wash regardless the number of hulls (an ORMA 60 does 600 miles a day as does a Volvo 70). Windward ability hands down the mono, physics is physics (surface area effectively kills forward progress when the breeze is on). Safety is toss up, ultimate stability goes to the mono but some multis don't sink. No healing for the multi but economy of purchase goes to the mono. And on and on...

There are pluses and minues for both types of boats and the cool thing is we all get to pick the parts of the matrix that are most important to us.



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Jaywalker, essentially yes. The whole 'tripping' issue is a discussion that I won't enter into as it is a pet issue here for some. Otherwise probably not so far off the mark. Windward ability is all over the map depending on design (performance vs comfort for example) Here are two things to keep in mind though.

Often windward ability is a function of headstay tension and also of underwater appendages. High aspect appendages such as dagger/center boards, provide better leeway resistance than shallow keels. Tri's tend to have them more consistently than cats mostly because when one goes for a tri, they are more interested in performance than space.

One other issue but one that is not too apparent on a cruising cat. Even if a cat, or tri or mono can all effectively trim to say a 35 degree apparent wind angle. The simple fact remains that the fastest of the three will be heading further off the wind. It's a simple vector thing. Couple this with the fact that the lightest one is most likely the one to be knocked more too leeward by sea action. Then factor in the increased windage of most cruising cats. The cat is the one that suffers the most from headstay tension (lack thereof), light weight,windage and often less than ideal underwater shapes. Hence the reduced reputation for windward ability.

There are exceptions in every category. YMMV.
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Old 14-02-2010, 21:15   #59
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Will be able to give some good input on the subject in a couple of months. After having owned and chartered monohuls our next adventures will include a Lagoon 380. We really have no idea how it will be. Judging from photo's we will have a lot of space.

Please let us know what you think.
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Old 14-02-2010, 21:22   #60
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There are pluses and minues for both types of boats and the cool thing is we all get to pick the parts of the matrix that are most important to us.
Hear Hear!
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