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Old 05-05-2008, 07:50   #106
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Originally Posted by rigamarole View Post
Finally a post thats on the topic. Thanks Cattywompus, that is the info I was interested in.
Finally - You must have missed posts 10 and 37. Or the numerous links to first-hand accounts (posts 2, 4, 6, 9, 25 and 51).

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FYI to the extreamly sensitive cat sailors - I love cats and am not even considering buying anything else. But you guys have a real attitude. It's a big turn off for this forum.
I must be one of the sensitive, eh? Actually, like the originator of this thread, I am a prospective cat owner and also interested in hearing real information on this topic. I have digested reams of info from books, magazines, threads and websites, in an honest effort to determine if a cat is suitable and safe to sail the world with my family. I am not afraid of being dissuaded from purchasing a cat, as I would happily purchase a mono - I just want the boat that best suits the needs of me and mine. To that end I wish to avoid wading through loads of crap to get to the real goods. By crap, I mean unsubstantiated opinions, rumours, musings, old wives' tales, or what have you. So if someone suggests that multi's are statistically more liable to be lost at sea than mono's, then by all means I want to see the empirical data. If someone suggests that multi's don't belong at high latitudes, then I want to read what reasons or experiences created that opinion. I don't want to read more crap! If that's "attitude" then so be it; I make no apologies.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:16   #107
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Wow up!! I am not suggesting my experience should be considered any measuring stick. I bet many others here have been through far worse than me. I was recounting my personal terrifying experience and mine alone. Someone like Midlandone or Seafox could most likely have sailed right through that reading the Sunday paper. Scott Nueman is probably the one here that has experienced a serious life threatening storm, but once again it was a Mono.
I asked that this topic could have been kept on track for no other reason than I wanted to hear of a first hand real experience.
Sadly this has now taken a turn for the worst with comments being made out of context. I am now bowing out of this thread. Yet another Multihull theme that has gone down the drain IMO.
"Wow up" - is that a Kiwi expression? Anyway Wheels, don't discount your experience - I considered it valuable to the discussion. For all the blather about mono's having all these great big-sea experiences, we haven't seen any of the other mono-gurus that are posting in this thread, relate their own experiences. Certainly I acknowledge Scott's (sneuman) ordeal - that's definitely a good example of survivablility in a small mono, but iirc he was dismasted and essentially wrote-off the boat, so he hardly came through unscathed.

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Old 05-05-2008, 09:16   #108
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I guess there would be a difference in my mind between "cruising" a northern lattitude and "living aboard". Many permaboards simply like having a boat tied to a dock and like the marina community. Nothing wrong with that, but things like stability, dual engines, safety underway, are far less relevant. A houseboat, a big trawler, a monohull all make sense from that point of view. For cruising, actively going from place to place, redundant helms, rudders, positive floatation, lack of heel, all those things make sense for a cat. Also, those people "cruising" northern latitudes are going in the summer, when it's in the 50s and 60s, and not in the winter.

I can tell you having spend 4 years saving, 1 year cruising, and now another 5 years saving to go cruising again for 5 years on my present catamaran I've spent 10 winters onboard a catamaran and have many friends here with the same. At my latitude (annapolis) a reverse cycle air conditioner will be able to keep the boat very warm until water temp drops below 40 degrees, at which point I move to oil filled radiators (one in each hull and one in the bridedeck settee area), which work until the boat drops into the low teens, at which point it's a struggle to keep the boat in the 60s and I turn on the oven and start baking something. keep a small port hatch open in each hull and one in the settee area and you'll keep condensation under control. Single digits and sub zero weather I would look at having two webasto heaters, one in each hull, blasting warm air. If you have births over the bridgedecks, you'll need about 4" of insulation underneath the bed cushions to prevent condensation. So can you take a catamaran to far northern climates, yes, definitely. Is it hard to heat, absolutely. Also those wonderful hatches in catamarans that are great for air flow in termperate and tropical climates become problematic in cold climates as the rate of heating/freezing is different for their materials and promotes leaking. Again, this isn't an issue in temperate climates or hot climates. This is a problem when you look out the window and you see the salt water estuary of the Chesapeake is frozen solid enough to walk on.

I think this is a bit of thread drift so PM me if you've got any other questions.

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Originally Posted by ssullivan View Post
Man... here is that opinion again. No cats up North. I've asked why several times. When I ask why, people say it's no problem. Then... when posting on different threads it becomes "torture" to have a cat above the Chesapeake. While the debate rages on, I have to wonder how this concept keeps surfacing... yet when I ask, everyone says it's fine to have a cat far North (in the States).

It was -23deg F this winter one night where I'm going. It's in the single digits quite a bit of the time.

Heating is going to be difficult not because of the shring wrapping (I don't do that - I shovel), but because I don't want to rely on fans to move the air around. I also want to heat with wood still. What will make it difficult is trying to get a heat source in each hull and then getting some insulation up on the ports (I have a lot of them). I am already insulated from the manufacturer of the boat though.

Anyway, I'll sure have a lot of data in about a year about cats being in these environments everyone keeps saying they should be in - even the propenents!

(btw: nothing directed toward you, personally, schoonerdog. Just another example of "cats can't cruise in high lattitudes", another thread I started on the subject)
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:23   #109
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Personally? I know crapola about Multi's since I've only sailed Mono's. Am I biased? No, I think a Multi could probably outrun more weather than a Mono to start with. It's nice to hear from folks who have Multi's and have been there. I know that during the biggest blow I've sailed Oh Joy in, the only other sailboat out there was a 50' or so Cat that just slid on by with just his Jib up and horizoned us in about an hour, looking quite comfortable as he did so. If I could afford a Multi, I'd probably have one.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:04   #110
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..... If I could afford a Multi, I'd probably have one.
Ditto......
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Old 05-05-2008, 12:12   #111
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I hardly dare stick a toe into this hot pool. 1. No experience. 2. I'm a cat man.
I want to retire afloat and cruise regularly, hopefully 24/7/40 i.e breaks of a week or so whem we find somewhere nice.
Why CAT. Because it will survive. OK, I've got to be careful with it, not press too hard, don't overlaod it, keep it away from the edges of the sea. The rest it can cope with with a competent and considerate crew. Safest place is off the continental shelf.
Why not mono. Great for day sailing, fun, feels fast, splashy water on deck. long term cruising, all the things that can go wrong will go wrong. I've read the reports. Usually it takes three things to reach critical mass. But I do not intend to be happy about surviving a knock down or a full roll without splitting my head open or losing a mast. OK Cats lose their mast too. Cruisers dont roll.
I do think good cat sailors are more conservative in that their boats are for life and must be well designed, maintained and managed. Speed management is a big factor in storms. Self sufficiency is also a necessary. Built in redundancy too.
I'm retiring aboard with limited funds so a secound hand boat that's twenty years old won't depreciate too quickly, doesn't show it's age yet, and provides accomodation for the family to visit (seven on board) for a week or so also gives comfortable living for the two permanent residents.
Storms, why would I want to? it's tiring and eventually gets scary but the boat will go on with catious management. Biggest risk is collision, sea-anchors do worry me from that angle. My boat wont sink on striking container/whale/beach/most rocks. A heavy keel is not a survival option but a mono man wont recognise that either. See you out there, soon. All welcome, we all love the sea and it's shores.
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Old 05-05-2008, 12:16   #112
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By the way our first trip out was in a force six east of the isle of white. Not bad, bouncy, but never any feeling off risk or even of getting wet. Cooking had it's own risks but the loo was useable, seating was comfortable and the cockpit dry and draught free. Cruisers heaven, racers hell.
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Old 05-05-2008, 13:51   #113
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Seems as a newer member I was not aware of the history of past heated defenses of cats by some of the cat fans. I will in future leave them to the fears that drive such threads.

As I have said I like both cats and monos (and power boats too) but neither is perfect, they both have their deficiencies. The maniacal defense of cats by some amuses me - but I am also quick to point out, to be fair, that on other forums I have seen others make maniacal defenses of monos.

But I certainly give credit to the sailing ability of some cat owners owners here, I am not sure I could sail very well with just one eye .

Video (available on DVD) with some footage of a big cat in heavy weather is "No Latitude for Error" being the Jules Verne circumnavigation by Enza. Not a cruising cat though, but reasonably conservative, and a very, very competent crew (Peter Blake and Knox Johnson for starters). Don't know if there is anything on the internet but the "Cats are purrfect" people may like to trawl to see if there are any links to Blake's opinions of monohulls in heavy weather (in particular, the Steinlager tri he used for the round Australia record).
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Old 05-05-2008, 16:51   #114
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Seems as a newer member I was not aware of the history of past heated defenses of cats by some of the cat fans. I will in future leave them to the fears that drive such threads.

As I have said I like both cats and monos (and power boats too) but neither is perfect, they both have their deficiencies. The maniacal defense of cats by some amuses me - but I am also quick to point out, to be fair, that on other forums I have seen others make maniacal defenses of monos.

But I certainly give credit to the sailing ability of some cat owners owners here, I am not sure I could sail very well with just one eye .

Video (available on DVD) with some footage of a big cat in heavy weather is "No Latitude for Error" being the Jules Verne circumnavigation by Enza. Not a cruising cat though, but reasonably conservative, and a very, very competent crew (Peter Blake and Knox Johnson for starters). Don't know if there is anything on the internet but the "Cats are purrfect" people may like to trawl to see if there are any links to Blake's opinions of monohulls in heavy weather (in particular, the Steinlager tri he used for the round Australia record).

Your search - "No Latitude for Error" being the Jules Verne circumnavigation by Enza. Not a cruising cat though, but reasonably conservative, and a very, very competent crew Peter Blake and Knox Johnson for starters - did not match any documents.
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Old 05-05-2008, 17:13   #115
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Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
Don't know if there is anything on the internet but the "Cats are purrfect" people may like to trawl to see if there are any links to Blake's opinions of monohulls in heavy weather (in particular, the Steinlager tri he used for the round Australia record).

Nobody on this thread has stated that cats are perfect. If they have why dont you reference them saying so. The major majority of sailboat owners realize that all sailboats whether cats are monos are tradeoffs. Dont think I will be "trawlin" for ya either.
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Old 05-05-2008, 17:42   #116
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I haven't seen any "maniacal" defense of cats. If someone makes a statement like "multihulls are over represented in rescues" I would think it perfectly reasonable to ask for evidence. If the only "evidence" offered is "I live in New Zealand so I know" then sorry, not good enough.

I could just as easily say that monohulls are over represented in Bass Strait rescues, "I live in Australia so I know" and there is even a fair possibility I would be right - I haven't heard of a multihull being rescued there, and I know plenty have crossed, while we all know loads of mono's have needed to be rescued.

But without any data to back them up, they are both just opinions.

It's when opinions are presented as facts that it becomes annoying.
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Old 05-05-2008, 17:48   #117
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Although having only a passing interest in Cats (albeit a secret hankering for a Tri - which will probably never be fulfilled for both cash and practicallity reasons) I do like to learn new stuff - even if I am never going to use it.....but the Multihull threads do all seem to go the same way, which is a real shame ......and IMO is counterproductive in trying to educate the great unwashed (Mono owners? ) by simply discouraging folk from asking questions which will of course reference stuff back to a Mono - if it's what they know.

Whilst I do understand folk wishing to defend their choice of boat (Multi or Mono) to me it seems that some of the Multi contingent are wayyyyyyyyyyy too defensive, which to the uneducated (Moi!) smacks of either insecurity or good old fashioned nit picking for the sake of point scoring (hey, we all know how the "games" are played on forums ).

Anyone wanna talk about Guns or Anchors?
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Old 05-05-2008, 17:54   #118
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Anyone wanna talk about Guns or Anchors?

My favorite gun... no wait... anchor no wait...

It probably also has to do with the fact that multis are still quite in the minority. They are relatively new as modern cruising choices, so what we end up with is a very few of us that own them having the "burden of proof" layed upon us because we are some of the only people who know what they're all about.

It gets frustrating for the more vocal multi owners to hear the same old questions or statements that keep coming up, which are often not based in fact, but are based in rumor. (remember, I'm not pro multi yet... I just got one... jury is still out... so no flames)


But yeah... these threads all die a slow, agonizing death.
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Old 05-05-2008, 18:26   #119
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Your search - "No Latitude for Error" being the Jules Verne circumnavigation by Enza. Not a cruising cat though, but reasonably conservative, and a very, very competent crew Peter Blake and Knox Johnson for starters - did not match any documents.
This No Latitude for Error and No Good Calling for Mum | DVD | tvnz.co.nz came up top of the list in a Google search.

Regards

John
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Old 05-05-2008, 18:58   #120
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IBass Strait rescues, "I live in Australia so I know" and there is even a fair possibility I would be right - I haven't heard of a multihull being rescued there, and I know plenty have crossed, while we all know loads of mono's have needed to be rescued..

Mine certainly has done Bass St. It is interesting though - had a chap out social sailing with me the other day - never met him before (the social racing at our club has a few people turn up looking for rides). Nice chap, early fifties, not a lot of big boat experience but heaps of dinghy background, and like most dinghy sailors I have met he was excellent on the helm, particularly in light airs. No previous multi experience

Anyway - as we were getting started he asked about how we would tack, I suggested we push the tiller and play with some ropes, he went on to say that it was clear to him from all the research he had done (on forums like this) that multis wont tack very well, I suggested that he call a tack as normal and instruct me what he thought should happen and he could gauge for himself. He spent the nextr 5 minutes saying, BUT I thought they didnt tack well!

This is why some multi owners challenge ill-informed basless comments, more ofetn than not they are wrong, and along the way they damage both the multihull industry and the value of each multihull on the market.

I notice midlandone hasn't responded to my request for data relating to deaths. Perhaps he forgot.
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