Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-05-2008, 05:45   #76
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
I tend to agree with you ss.... But I could test fate and suggest that cat sailors are comparable to sail board sailors in the dinghy world, not real boats nor real sailors, but I won't .

But whatever, I have a lot of time for both monos and cats, but claim neither are perfect, both having their strengths and weaknesses just like their skippers do too.
__________________

__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 06:03   #77
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
I tend to agree with you ss.... But I could test fate and suggest that cat sailors are comparable to sail board sailors in the dinghy world, not real boats nor real sailors, but I won't .

But whatever, I have a lot of time for both monos and cats, but claim neither are perfect, both having their strengths and weaknesses just like their skippers do too.
Yeah... it's painful at times to see the same things over and over.

In the past year, I've put about 1800-2000 miles in on cruising monos and cruising cats, split almost evenly. By the beginning of summer, that number will be closer to 3000 miles, mostly on a cat at that point, due to the delivery I'm on.

Even with all this real world time on both in the past year, I don't see that much of a difference between the two, other than accomodations.

They are shaped differently, so you tend to attack problem seas at different angles, but all in all... they really arem not that different from each other, no matter how much a cat owner wants to tell you they are!

The only real differences have to do with interior and deck space, dual engines and hulls and shallow drafts. Other than that, it's still a sailboat and it still handles like one. Cruising cats aren't as fast as you picture cats to be... they are more like monos in speed - just a tad faster.

I have seen some winds and seas in this boat. Nothing scary, but enough to see what the boat does when things pick up a bit. Rather than cutting through, it rides up and over. That's the only real difference. Also, the motion is quicker.

The debate over the one in a million storm scenario just isn't going to be resolved, IMO - especially since having put all these miles on both in the past year, I can't even resolve many differences.
__________________

__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 06:05   #78
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Sean has it right - this is becoming rather tiresome. I can understand the tendancy of monohullers to take comfort from the fact that more monos have encountered and survived these conditions than multihulls. On the other hand, the fact that monohulls have been sailing in these conditions for centuries and have, therefore, numbers that not only historically, but currently outstrip multis by a huge margin really does not prove anything.

We are, in relative terms, in the very early days of the cruising multihull. With the appearance of the first automobiles, there were also many who yelled 'Get a horse!' Many who truly believed that the automobile was unsafe, unreliable and unsuited for day to day transportation. Afterall, more people safely made it to church/town in varying conditions on horses than in automobiles, right?

The fact is that insurance companies base their rates on statistical analysis, and properly designed, built, equipped and sailed multis have proven by their analyses to be at least as safe as a comparable monohull. Full stop.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 07:23   #79
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
But whatever, I have a lot of time for both monos and cats, but claim neither are perfect, both having their strengths and weaknesses just like their skippers do too.
OK after 6 pages, its time I chimed in here .
Not only do I echo Mid's opinion but it seems to me that all his posts on this subject quite clearly show (to me, at least) that he holds a balanced view on the cat/mono issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
We are, in relative terms, in the very early days of the cruising multihull. ...Brad
Brad,
I beg to differ but in relative terms we are in the early days of the cruising monohull.

I don't fully recall when the current monhull yacht concept was designed but I am sure it was in the 19th century - I talking here of ballasted keel boats, not sailing ships of say 15th to say 17th century.
However the cruising multihull has been around in a basic form since around 3000 BC as used by the Malayo-Polynesian Austronesian speaking peoples. OK it could be argued their double hulled craft might not be exactly the same as the modern cats so let's skip forward to the early part of the last 2000 years.

From the first centuries AD to before the 1000 AD, the Polynesians had traversed 1/3 of the worlds oceans from Hawaii to New Zealand and had done so in ocean going catamarans. These Polynesian multihulls show the same form and function as our current cats. Indeed James Warram modeled his design philosphy from such vessels.

So the modern cats have a long heritage of being functional sea worthy ocean going cruising vessels.

For those who need references, for starters try "Voyaging Stars", "We, The Navigators" and "From Maui to Cook" all by Dr David Lewis. There are others but I can't lay my hands of them right now.

Perhaps a bit off the topic, but Dr Lewis made the first circumnavigation of the world in a catamaran. He did so in the mid sixties by the way of the Straits of Magellan with his young family of board (wife and two pre-school aged daughters). He later single handed to Antarcita in a mono (steel 30 ft sloop).

BTW, those Polynesian multis were home built wooden vessels and probably didn't carry series drogues, para-anchors and Epirbs -
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 09:52   #80
Registered User
 
jrd22's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Juan Islands, WA
Boat: 1988 Brewer Three Seas 40' Pilothouse
Posts: 251
I think Keegans' video clearly shows that conditions in NZ are far too extreme for any multi to attempt. I also agree with 44s' conclusion that since there are no first hand accounts from multis' in extreme conditions that they have all capsized and are dead. This should end the debate I assume, until the next time someone dares to ask a question that someone can twist to be a slam against cats. So, do cats always pitch pole in anything more than a 4' chop, and do all monos eventually sink because they carry ballast?

John
__________________
John Davidson
S/V Laurie Anne
1988 40' Brewer Pilothouse
jrd22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 10:27   #81
...

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 483
Maybe it is all just perception, what a 'Big One' (so to speak) is to a monohuller may not appear to be a 'Big One' to a multihuller, maybe all the monohullers that are bragging the fact that they have 'been there', 'done it', 'got the t-shirt' etc and that it does not appear that multihullers have or could face one and survive, is because the multihullers already have been there, but as they are more comfortable, less tiring etc, being in that situation does not feel that bad at all and therefore have no reason to shout about it.
That's my two pence worth Now I can get back to my antifouling after I finish my cup of tea.
__________________
ireaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 11:32   #82
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Actually, as others have attempted to point out, there are first hand accounts of multis having survived 'the big one' - some already referred to in this thread and others. One recent (and well publicized example) was Richard Wood's Eclipse 32 that, after being abandoned in horrible conditions, was found upright and intact. What is tiresome is an endless debate perpetuated by some monohullers who insist upon speaking in irrational absolutes such as NO multihull can survive in conditions that monohulls regularly survive, and by some multihullers who speak in irrational absolutes such as, ALL cats are faster and more comfortable than monohulls.

I now expect some monohuller to say that the conditions Richard's Woods' boat survived were child's play as the waves were not 60 feet high and winds did not exceed 90 knots - disregarding the fact that the shape and frequency of the waves, their direction relative to current and wind and whether they are breaking is generally more important than absoute wind velocity and the wave height from trough to crest (consider, for example, the Fastnet disaster). They will ignore the fact that they weren't out there to experience it first hand - after all, since the Eclipse was a 32 foot catamaran, then a priori the conditions couldn't have been that bad.

Sadly, it seems that it is not just religion and politics that tends to bring out irrational fervour.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 12:14   #83
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
So what type of anchor is the best anchor and what is the best way to deploy it?

Vanilla, Chocolate or Strawberry?

Ford or Chevy?

Mac or PC?

One serious question - how many multihullers are also Mac people?

ha ha ha
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 13:41   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
What is tiresome is an endless debate perpetuated by some monohullers who insist upon speaking in irrational absolutes such as NO multihull can survive in conditions that monohulls regularly survive
I don't recall such a claim being made in this thread so I must have missed it. To save me the trouble of rereading it all could you refer me to the particular posts in this thread where those claims were made (tiresomely).

PS I do know multihulls make Cape Horn type voyages in heavy weather - a good friend of mine rescued the crew off one in a storm of Cape Horn some years back . CALM Down, Calm down multi sailors, it is true, but made here as a joke .
__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 15:13   #85
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
Interestingly there are still no first hand accounts.
Except for cnj's and Gideon's. I don't know why links to first-hand accounts should be discounted. Despite there being plenty of monohullers chiming in, there's only one first-hand account by a monohuller (yours).
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 15:46   #86
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
As I recall it one of the 7 monos that transmitted a distress alert later rescinded it and continued its passage successfully - so would seem there were 8 boats in total left distressed, one of which was lost with all hands. So seems there were 6 monos and 2 cats, the cats thus comprising 25% of the vessels evacuated or lost.
And monohulls comprised 100% of those vessels which sank resulting in fatalities.

"Ramtha" was recovered INTACT. None of the abandoned monohulls were. They had all rolled several times, and had all lost their rigs.

Interestingly though, you don't see multihull enthusiasts claiming that monohulls are unsuitable for high lattitude sailing, even though the outcome of this storm, the Fastnet storm, and the Sydney-Hobart 1998 storm would seem to suggest that to be the case.

I prefer the many advantages of multihulls, but I have never felt the need to join the monohull forum and run monohulls down.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 16:52   #87
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssullivan View Post
One serious question - how many multihullers are also Mac people?

ha ha ha
I am a convert
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 17:02   #88
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
I believe I actually said in the post you are quoting from "The two multihulls that I believe were losses..." meaning they were distressed and the crews evacuated. I actually do say "Ramtha" was salvaged so I would have thought my intention clear.
Rantha was never "salvaged" in the generic sense only the legal sense. There was almost no damage to the boat when it was relocated. The NZ navy came upon Ramtha, they were not in distress but the storm was huge and the crew took the opportunity to go with navy boat while they had the chance. - Like I said - get the dvd - look at the evidence of the people who were there. I have personally spoken with the crew of Ramtha - they would never again make the mistake of leaving a sound vessel.

Quote:
As I recall it one of the 7 monos that transmitted a distress alert later rescinded it and continued its passage successfully - so would seem there were 8 boats in total left distressed, one of which was lost with all hands. So seems there were 6 monos and 2 cats, the cats thus comprising 25% of the vessels evacuated or lost.
Ah - lies - damn lies and statistics. Heres a stat - 100% of dead poeple were on monos.

Quote:
If nothing else this thread has shown that catamarans are purrfect without fault, at least in the eyes of some that own them . And if one mentions matters from the realms of ones own experience that might infer they are not purrfect one is dismissed as argumentative
.

No - you are dead wrong (theres that monohull word again) I acknowledge the limitations of my boat, I acknowledge the limitations of other multis, I acknowledge the limitations of monos, including all the boats I have owned and sailed.

What I dont accept is ill-informed comment from biased commentators.

Some questions, - last death on a multi? Last catastrophic loss of a multi? (there have been some, but way less that monos) How many in the last decade?
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 17:12   #89
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 123
Its funny how long posts start off with interesting comments and end in pages of jibberish . I would think one would check if they could and try not to be in a big one. I will say that those that have it was good reading in what you did,how this has turned into another flipping thread well we all know that.
__________________
Randall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 17:55   #90
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No longer post here
Boat: Catalac Catamaran
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd22 View Post
I also agree with 44s' conclusion that since there are no first hand accounts from multis' in extreme conditions that they have all capsized and are dead. This should end the debate I assume,
Well, first of all, no multihull guy began this debate, we never do. It's always a mono guy. Second, hopefully this thread has aliviated the false information on catamarans that's being tossed around in this forum. Insurance, and survivability to name just two. I initially brought up the Queens birthday storm as an example of both types of boats caught in the same storm system with accurate records. I've always felt that the results spoke for themselves on survivability, and thought this would settle the argument. Instead of settling it, even some of you Kiwis seem to have different recollections of the events. No matter, the books on the subject have been written, the DVD's published. Monohulls have a dismal record of survival when compared to Blue Water Catamarans.

I also feel that Sean's insurance bill settles yet another matter. I consider both of these points to be settled.

To address your specific question quoted above, Could it be that no catamaran guy has recent storm experience because we can read a weather map and understand what a weather window is? Or is it 44s' conclusion that Catamarans simply outrun the weather system?

I for one don't plan testing the survivability issue anytime soon... if ever.
__________________

__________________
Tropic Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rode

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How Much Rode? rleslie Anchoring & Mooring 26 25-02-2008 08:11
living with a big cat? Brandywine Multihull Sailboats 8 19-12-2007 14:45
Big cat small crew? Brandywine Multihull Sailboats 11 31-05-2007 16:49
How Much Rode? Charlie Anchoring & Mooring 36 26-03-2007 17:45
my big, big, plan faithful Meets & Greets 1 17-10-2004 15:28



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:50.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.