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Old 03-05-2008, 20:02   #61
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Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
I am afraid that you will have to refer me to wherever I said anything different. What I said is that it is very rare to see foreign cats down this far and as far as I am aware I have more knowledge of where I have lived for decades than you do, but you may wish to correct me on that.

I readily accept that if you add up all the cat voyages over the last few decades down this way they would indeed add up to being more than 1 or 2, so "numerous". But shall we start making up a list, you of cats that have done so and I of monos that have done so .

However, I suggest that your list will come to an end well, well before mine so I suggest that we just agree to disagree over cats being the purrfect vessel for whatever purpose and for everywhere, whereas my stance is that all boats are a compromise .



With regard to your last post I was unaware that I was not entitled to take part in the discussion.
You have misinterpreted some of my comments. For example, I did not say that anyone, including yourself should not be entitled to participate. I have noticed that your posting style tends to get you into debates with people that become arguments instead of discussions. Your posting style is of course your choice.

There were a couple other misinterpretations that you made about my comments but I am ok with that. No offense intended here. Enjoy the thread.

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Old 03-05-2008, 20:10   #62
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Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
If you want to live aboard up north, you want a mono. If you want a day sailor or something for short trips, you want a monohull. It will be far cheaper to keep, and far easier to heat. Anything above the chesapeake as a liveaboard for catamarans would be torture, as it would cost huge amounts to insulate or try to shrink wrap. It's simply not practical. In the very cold climates people shrink wrap their boats and a catamaran would costs thousands to try to do. Here it gets down to the single digits (Fahrenheit, maybe 12 below in Celsius) and it's frankly a little brutal to keep warm, lots of surface area.

Man... here is that opinion again. No cats up North. I've asked why several times. When I ask why, people say it's no problem. Then... when posting on different threads it becomes "torture" to have a cat above the Chesapeake. While the debate rages on, I have to wonder how this concept keeps surfacing... yet when I ask, everyone says it's fine to have a cat far North (in the States).

It was -23deg F this winter one night where I'm going. It's in the single digits quite a bit of the time.

Heating is going to be difficult not because of the shring wrapping (I don't do that - I shovel), but because I don't want to rely on fans to move the air around. I also want to heat with wood still. What will make it difficult is trying to get a heat source in each hull and then getting some insulation up on the ports (I have a lot of them). I am already insulated from the manufacturer of the boat though.

Anyway, I'll sure have a lot of data in about a year about cats being in these environments everyone keeps saying they should be in - even the propenents!

(btw: nothing directed toward you, personally, schoonerdog. Just another example of "cats can't cruise in high lattitudes", another thread I started on the subject)
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Old 03-05-2008, 22:21   #63
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The topic was "Who has rode out a big one". The convo has drifted to where boats sail and blah blah.

Does anyone have first hand expearence in a major storm? Any video or photos of a cat in a life endangering storm? It doesn't seem so.
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Old 03-05-2008, 22:56   #64
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There have been links posted to people who have sailed through storms. Apparently that's not first hand enough.

Some people won't accept anything other than what they want to hear. Why is there no video of cats in storms? Why no first hand reports on this forum?

Could it simply be that those sailors aren't members of this forum? Naah...
Could it be that prudent sailors try to avoid that kind of weather, and perhaps multihull sailors are just a little more successful at it? Naaaah...

It must be because all of those who ever hit storms in multihulls are dead. Yeah, that's it, every multi that ever saw more than 20 knots breeze must have flipped over, broken up, caught fire and sunk.
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Old 03-05-2008, 23:03   #65
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When comparing apples to apples ie modern cruising 44' mono to modern cruising 44' catamaran the speed difference is very small as proven by recent race results and personal experience. Remember if you are caught in the dangerous quadrant of a tropical storm it is to windward you must go.

check out this site for comment from the insurers. Catamaran Controversy
That article has been discussed at length. It is utter garbage. Insurance companies base their premiums on hard facts and statistics. Catamarans don't cost anymore to insure than monohulls of the same value.
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Old 03-05-2008, 23:10   #66
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Originally Posted by rigamarole View Post
The topic was "Who has rode out a big one". The convo has drifted to where boats sail and blah blah.

Does anyone have first hand expearence in a major storm? Any video or photos of a cat in a life endangering storm? It doesn't seem so.


I could not find exactly what you wanted but here are several sailboats showing how tuff the conditions are when sailing in New Zealand.



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Old 03-05-2008, 23:20   #67
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The topic was "Who has rode out a big one". The convo has drifted to where boats sail and blah blah.
I thought it was ok to drift as a sailor.

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Old 03-05-2008, 23:23   #68
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I would not have thought Alan would ignore anyone on purpose, but if that is your judgement of him then so be it. Let me answer instead.

The two multihulls that I recall were losses in that storm were "Heartlight" and "Ramtha" (I am working from memory as I am currently away on the boat, but I am sure if I have it wrong others will say ). As I recall it "Ramtha" was subsequently recovered and it would be fair comment to say that the crew of "Heartlight" should not have been on a boat in a puddle let alone the temperate route - however that occurs with mono losses too. The crew of "Heartlight" had the rescuing vessel (an ocean going fishing vessel) run her down after they were evacuated.

One monohull with all its crew was lost (and evacuations off a few others - forgotten exact number) and I am aware of matters which makes that loss perhaps not much of a surprise - I would not like to go into those in public but PM me if you are genuinely interested and will protect the information.
These are the numbers according to the reports I have read: 9 vessels issued maydays. 7 monohulls and 2 catamarans. All of the monohulls had repeatedly rolled, and all had lost their masts. One of them sank along with her crew.

Of the 2 cats one was rammed by her rescue vessel, the other was later recovered right side up and intact. (She is lying at my local marina)

IMHO, one catamaran being deliberately sunk is entirely different from "several multihulls were lost".
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Old 03-05-2008, 23:26   #69
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When looking at statistics of boats of a certian type caught in weather of a certain badness, you might want ot bear in mind the huge improvements in weather forecasting over the past 30 years. And, cheap weather fax and grib files make it easier to recieve those forecasts.
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Old 03-05-2008, 23:59   #70
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and when I asked him to direct me to some I was ignored.
Sorry 44CC. It was not on purpose. I struggle to keep up with the tasks and the posts around here and certain threads often get forgotten about. Midlandone answered your question I see.
Interestingly there are still no first hand accounts. But I would say that is because the chance of getting caught in such sea's is a rare event. Oh and Sean, I hope you don't ever get that sort of experience under your belt. What I went through was terrifying to me, but little stuff compared to what the few unlucky ones sometimes run into.
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:54   #71
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Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
The two multihulls that I recall were losses in that storm were "Heartlight" and "Ramtha" (I am working from memory as I am currently away on the boat, but I am sure if I have it wrong others will say ). As I recall it "Ramtha" was subsequently recovered and it would be fair comment to say that the crew of "Heartlight" should not have been on a boat in a puddle let alone the temperate route - however that occurs with mono losses too. The crew of "Heartlight" had the rescuing vessel (an ocean going fishing vessel) run her down after they were evacuated.

One monohull with all its crew was lost (and evacuations off a few others - forgotten exact number) and I am aware of matters which makes that loss perhaps not much of a surprise - I would not like to go into those in public but PM me if you are genuinely interested and will protect the information.
.
Ramtha was never lost- ever it was abandoned and turned up a few weeks later happily floating along. It has since undertaken many many sea miles.

Heartlight was not lost either, it was murdered by the lunatics who owned it.

Two multis - neither boat lost no one killed or seriously hurt

The monos were not so fortunate. There was death and destruction


Get the DVD - it makes excellent viewing with interviews of the surviving crews.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:50   #72
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That article has been discussed at length. It is utter garbage. Insurance companies base their premiums on hard facts and statistics. Catamarans don't cost anymore to insure than monohulls of the same value.
This is a fact. I pay *less* to insure my cat than I did to insure my mono. It's an insignificant difference, but just a little bit less.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:53   #73
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Let me see if I have this right - of the hundreds of catamarans that have, or are currently circumnavigating, none have encountered 'the Big One'. Of the thousands of cats that have crossed the Atlantic from South Africa and France - and at every time of the year, none have encountered 'the Big One'.

On the other hand, monohulls encounter 'the Big One' all the time. Sounds to me as if either the owners of cruising cats or the boats themselves are incredibly blessed. Either way, I have apparently found another reason to be glad that I sold my monohull and now own a cruising cat.

Brad
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:54   #74
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IMHO, one catamaran being deliberately sunk is entirely different from "several multihulls were lost".
I believe I actually said in the post you are quoting from "The two multihulls that I believe were losses..." meaning they were distressed and the crews evacuated. I actually do say "Ramtha" was salvaged so I would have thought my intention clear.

As I recall it one of the 7 monos that transmitted a distress alert later rescinded it and continued its passage successfully - so would seem there were 8 boats in total left distressed, one of which was lost with all hands. So seems there were 6 monos and 2 cats, the cats thus comprising 25% of the vessels evacuated or lost.

No one seems to know how many sail boats were caught in the storm but you can be sure, especially back then (1994?), that the number of cats would have comprised much less than 25% of the total. I personally know of one other, but larger cat as being reported as being in the storm but there may have been more.

And for Factor also -

Hey, I did say "Ramtha" was salvaged and "Heartlight" deliberately sunk .

I do not know exactly how many of the mono's later turned up one way or another as "Ramtha" did but I know of at least 3 - "Destiny" was found aground in Vanuatu, stripped and burnt by locals, "Sofia" (a Westsail 32 I think) was found afloat and salvaged, and "Silver Shadow" was found aground (I believe stripped beyond repair) after being previously seen drifting.

I have seen the DVD you suggest and also the TV program, both a number of times over the years. I have also spoken with people who were in the storm and with those who knew the mono and its crew that was lost.

If nothing else this thread has shown that catamarans are purrfect without fault, at least in the eyes of some that own them . And if one mentions matters from the realms of ones own experience that might infer they are not purrfect one is dismissed as argumentative .
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Old 04-05-2008, 05:23   #75
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Well, at least it's more friendly than an anchor debate... however boring it gets hearing the same story about the same little race over and over and over... YAWN!

I wonder why cat owners don't film the storms or make web logs about them?

Maybe the person who buys a cat has a different personality than that of a mono? They are looking for different things from the experience of going to sea and cruising? Maybe they don't film or document things as much (except Maxingout and SurfNRG)? Maybe they see the world a little differently? Maybe they get through the storms and then move on to something else and don't really post about them? Maybe there are less catamarans so less storm stories?

Either way, there doesn't seem to be a good final outcome of these kinds of threads.
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