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Old 11-06-2015, 22:01   #16
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Thanks for the all the inputs. After reading these and plenty of discussion with Doyle and MackPack I've now conceded to the fact that I’ll be pushing a zipper along with the aid of a tether and boat hook – i.e. Catopia, and advised the process is quite do-able. I have a few mast steps – even a small stepladder, if needed. So I guess Im OK with all that.

Ultimately, I would have liked to have seen an innovated solution for opening/closing but must admit, even with my engineering hat on, I was puzzled; more so for the opening. However, I'm contemplating having the zipper offset i.e. placed at say 1 or 2 o’clock for improved access as long as there isn’t a penalty for getting the longer/opposite flap over the sail.

I'm strongly siding with Doyle, as while the zipper system is common to both, the material selection that Doyle uses (Dacron with Sunbrella) appears more robust than that of MackPacks (Sunbrella only) and as an owner of a boat that spends many miles on the oceans, longevity is paramount to me. Both have strong track records and happy customers.
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Old 12-06-2015, 02:15   #17
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Emerald Sea, my sailmaker made, replacement for my Doyle Stack Pack was made with an overlapping doubled fold of material over the zipper. Hard to explain, it was just in the custom finishing detail and only a half inch or so. It does not impede the operation of the zipper at all and seems to improve waterproofing of the the zipper. The Doyle design forms a gutter on top which tends to collect rainwater when on a mooring. I try to angle the aft end of the boom down then to assist the runoff as puddles can form creating patches of mould on the sail when left over winter months. This is not a criticism of the Doyle, just an operational procedure for me. Your idea of offsetting the zipper is an interesting one. It may then be harder to access as it would be closer to the lazy jacks and just inside an upstanding side of the "gutter", as I see it. I've seen children using a stack pack on an L450 as a hammock as it motors into a marina. Maybe you could just walk / crawl along the boom to work the zipper? At any rate a Doyle or similar is going to be much easier than any other option I can think of; especially than fighting a traditional sail cover in a breeze. The other good mod my sailmaker made was to extend the zipper only, about a foot or so past the aft end of the cover and sail clew and sewing up the end of the zipper so the slide remains captive with this zipper tail hanging down from the boom end. You might require more than a foot on an L450. It makes it easy to pull the slide forward when covering the dropped sail. No more fighting overhead to join the slide into the zipper. This make things a lot easier especially I imagine on your larger yacht. Just a small detail which makes a big difference.
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:35   #18
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

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Im in need of a replacement stack pack for my Lagoon 450 which came with a quite inferior one from Incidence Sails. A year later, 6000Nm and an ocean crossing it has worn, broken, ripped, discoloured, been re-sewen, repaired, etc.

Ive received proposals from Doyle and MackPack and these have come recommended from some owners but I'd appreciate more feedback on the pros/cons of each of these and any others available?

Note that the 450 has a high boom, access is a challenge, but Im tall. Other improvements would be an alternative system to the weighted throw lines, space gaps for UV penetration and the jack lines that make hoisting the main sail problematic at times.
Don't forget to mention the reefing system that hangs up all the time.
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:49   #19
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

My old pack was a Mack, and they had a rather clever zipper system with a continuous line to the slide run thru pulleys and fairleads so that you could zip from wherever

edit: yeah, I thought I had a pic of it - wife built our own sail pack and knocked off a lot of the Mack ideas, here's the pic
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Old 13-06-2015, 06:05   #20
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Hi Steve,

Small world as I believe you just met another Cathay pilot, Jonathan, in Mauritius and he has put a deposit down on a new L450.

Sorry to be so set in my ways and unfortunately the price is steep if not done from the start (I believe Lagoon offering it in the next 6 months) but the Leisure Furl is in a league of its own with the high boom on the L450. Getting rid of the tangle of reefing lines, batten snagging lazy jacks, having infinite reefing, one person use, ah luxury (probably seen my thread on just this)

My Incidence stack pack also fell apart within 3 years as not made with UV resistant material, stitching was appalling.

Best wishes and safe travels
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Old 13-06-2015, 12:26   #21
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Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Dave From NZ. It was indeed a pleasure to meet Jonathan last week here in Mauritius. I have read your threads regarding your Leisure Furl with keen interest. I haven't shrugged it off but Im just not there yet. Perhaps in a few years with some more experience and track record. I understand the benefits but also acutely aware of the implications with in-boom systems. You may see me out there with one yet....but today its a new sail bag.

Cheers and hope to meet you in a bay for some fishing one day.


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Old 23-06-2015, 11:14   #22
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Hi Steve,

Wondering whether you've had a result from Doyle regarding your stack pack yet? We're having a sit down with Simpson, the dealers, later this week to cover number of issues raised here on the forums to see if we can't "cut them off at the pass" as it were, prior to the boat leaving the factory. No point to order the Incidence bag if we're just going to have to replace within a couple of years. Hope all is well in Port Louis!

Cheers,
Jonathan
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Old 23-06-2015, 15:13   #23
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

I asked lagoon to ask Incidences to at least cover the zip with the fabric. Our last zip fell apart after a year or two of UV. They said they couldn't ask for anything special. The bag on our new L400 does cover the zip though so maybe I got through to them..
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Old 23-06-2015, 22:52   #24
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Hi Jonathan. Ive now agreed a system with Doyle Sails out of Florida. They call it the "Continuous Line Trolley Zipper System" and you can search/see it on Youtube. They have a track record with this system on 450s. Its not too complex and should, one day it not work, I can always attach a lanyard loop to the zipper and open/close it with the boat hook. Also, as I have the square top, the halyard needs to be loosened sufficiently and would move forward toward the mast with the zipping. They have been very responsive, helpful, solution oriented and provide excellent materials.

Lagoon have a supply contract with Incidence for the supply of sails and accessories. Have Simpson/Lagoon address Incidence to provide an alternative bag and materials - likely at a cost. History shows they only last until the warranty period is complete.

Some time back, I wrote Incidence a (polite) ****-o-gram telling them of their inferior product, reputation loss, etc. No reply of course! Point is, they know they have a crap stack pack and Lagoon have a joint responsibility to rectify it.

Let me know how you get along.
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Old 24-06-2015, 19:53   #25
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

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Originally Posted by Emerald Sea View Post
Im in need of a replacement stack pack for my Lagoon 450 which came with a quite inferior one from Incidence Sails. A year later, 6000Nm and an ocean crossing it has worn, broken, ripped, discoloured, been re-sewen, repaired, etc.

Ive received proposals from Doyle and MackPack and these have come recommended from some owners but I'd appreciate more feedback on the pros/cons of each of these and any others available?

Note that the 450 has a high boom, access is a challenge, but Im tall. Other improvements would be an alternative system to the weighted throw lines, space gaps for UV penetration and the jack lines that make hoisting the main sail problematic at times.
I bought aMackPackand it came sosmallit wont zipup beware of this.
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Old 24-06-2015, 20:00   #26
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

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Steve,
I cannot say enough good things about Mack Sails!!

I've been personally doing business with them for many years (~ 20), and my brother before me....and my parents did business with Colin's and Travis' dad, back when he ran Mack-Shaw Sails, in Ft. Lauderdale in the 70's....

The best things about Mack Sails:
--- They are SAILMAKERS (and sailors), not just sail salesmen!
--- They have a LOT of real experience and will give you HONEST answers/advice....
--- They will listen to your desires (if you tell them, they're not mind readers!) and make recommendations, etc. based on both your desires and their experience...
--- They stand behind their work 100%...
--- All of their sails are made right there in their loft, by them, in Florida....and they ship sails all over the world!


I know you've already spoke to them and got a quote from 'em....just wanted to give you a personal recommendation...

[BTW, I don't own/sail a L450, nor a cat at all...I sail a mono....but I still think my recommendation holds!]


Fair winds...


John
Well Mack made my Macpack too small and cant get their new main inside it without sending a young ape atop the cockpit canopy to stomp on it for10minutes!...........
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Old 25-06-2015, 11:31   #27
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Thanks for the info Steve. After chatting with Simpson today, we've decided to bin the Incidence stack pack and opt for another product from the outset. Likely the same as you from Doyle although we're chatting with UK sails here in HK as they offer a similar closure system. Must say the Doyle bag looks pretty robust though. We're still going through the options list trying to figure out the best configuration for us. Currently mulling over the inverter/no inverter question.
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Old 25-06-2015, 13:39   #28
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Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Miss I'd probably vote for no inverter. Some options are good value, some not so good. We had a 1500W victron inverter fitted aftermarket for €1600. What is the factory fit price, €3000+?
Same goes for solar. Whereas folding props, AIS, remote VHF and a few other options are not much saving to fit aftermarket and not worth the hassle.
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Old 25-06-2015, 15:26   #29
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Hi Jonathan,

I presume you mean not getting the factory inverter and not actually 'no' inverter as I feel an inverter is fairly much essential equipment. Certainly get all the factory installed wiring and switches installed for the a/c outlets. The outlets can be customised to the country you choose.

We have a 2000w inverter. Two problems we strike;

1. Sailing along, enjoying the breeze on the flybridge, and the chart plotter dims and the autopilot threatened to drop out. Oh yes someone is using a high power elect device - jug say - without starting the generator, and so drawing maybe 150A through the inverter.
2. With the 11KVA gen running we are using the microwave, Nespresso and sandwich maker. The AC1 switch on the panel trips. i.e. can only use 2 elect socket devices at the same time even with gen running

Do get the clothes washer, don't get the dishwasher.

Cheers
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Old 25-06-2015, 15:42   #30
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Re: Which Stack Pack for a L450?

Hi Steve and Jonathan,

I don't wish to sound negative but I think you may find the zip option for the stack pack to be a real hassle. I looked at it with Doyles in Auckland and discarded in favour of retaining the flaps.

As you know the problem we have with the L450 is the very high boom and so the top of the stack pack is unreachable. Typically with a stack pack with a zip the crew can shove the main in by hand to clear the zip. In the L450 case the stack pack would have to be extra high to get the sail to drop fully in. That makes for more windage and a wobbly stack pack. The current one with flaps allows the flaps to be pulled over and pulled very tight to secure the sail. Even then, if not done right, the whole heavy sail will flop to one side of the boom and stretch the lazy jacks (I had to fit drainage in the poor Incidence pack as it also filled with water).

As you mention Steve, the square top main top batten requires a bit of work to get it to lay flat so with a zip you may well always end up the mast prodding with a boat hook?

The L450 is the worst combination of being a big yacht with a very heavy mainsail that has a skinny and high, almost no access, boom. I suspect a zip will continuously jam in the sail?

Cheers, Dave
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