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Old 08-10-2009, 18:42   #16
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CHild of the sea is a wharram design.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:06   #17
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Considering Lagoon 400.Any cat better ?Lipari starting to be ruled out.Maverick 40 any better ? Thanks
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Old 10-10-2009, 07:56   #18
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Annapolis boat's in person!

As a first timer at the show yesterday, I was blown away at the real-life size of the 40 ft cats.
I mean, they're huge inside. omg!
I'd assumed a 44-50 ft was reqd for comfort & space....but not at all.
Not sure, yet, how they can move...I'll find out on my winter Cat charter....but they sure are spacious.
The Mainecat 41 was superb inside & out. AND the pleasant gentleman sitting on duty lacked the " 'tude " of many of the other sales dicks!
I'd love to charter a crewed version in the BVI's if I could
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:58   #19
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Originally Posted by peter windsor View Post
Considering Lagoon 400.Any cat better ?Lipari starting to be ruled out.Maverick 40 any better ? Thanks
I was on the Lagoon 400 yesterday. Without a doubt, this was the worst catamaran I have ever been on. I dislike writing that, but I was shocked at what I found and can't believe a manufacturer is trying to put something like that boat out for sale. This boat was designed only for sitting on a dock, and it isn't even a good boat for that. I have become used to condomarans and charter boats, and give them credit for filling their design goals and market niche. I can give no credit to the Lagoon 400.

Where to start?

The galley has zero (none, not even a teeny tiny bit) of storage space. I thought maybe one could put a couple of dishes in the lone small ~18"x10" cupboard, but when I opened it, a tiny microwave was stuffed into it. The rest of the galley cabinetry was filled with a fridge, freezer and a small trash bin. Maybe future Lagoon 400 owners only eat frozen burritos and have no need for dishes, pots, pans and silverware?

The stbd owners hull is immense and open with no bulkheads dividing up the space (I am not listing this as a bad point - until later). However, the floorboards in the hulls creak, moan, move and spring as you walk on them. Really, really badly. None of them are secure, or can be secured, and I was concerned about falling through them they are so unsupported and cheap. Did I mention cheap?

The rest of the inside has similar cheap fit and finish throughout.

The engine compartments are very deep and poorly sealed. The boat at the show was delivered by ship from France to Baltimore and motored the short trip down to Annapolis, where the mast was stepped and rigged. Both engine compartments had leaked enough during the brief life of this boat that the exhaust manifolds were rusted and the exhaust elbows were severely rusted. There were no steps or easy access into or out of the ~6' deep engine compartments.

Walking up the starboard side deck, I was surprised to find the deck flexing and bouncing 1/8" like a trampoline! I weigh 160lbs wet and could deflect the deck 1/4" by gently bouncing up and down on it. Here is where having no bulkheads interfering with the interior volume manifests itself.

Both anchor rollers were pathetically undersized and installed on the cross beam with 1/4" aluminum pop rivets. One of the rollers was already pulling out the rivets. The rollers are simply unusable - even for just displaying a small stainless anchor at the dock. The fiberglass catwalk connecting the bridgedeck to the cross beam and guiding the anchor chain to the roller flexed alarmingly when stood on - probably 1" or more (again, I weigh 160lbs wet). The catwalk is designed mostly only for use as a chain guide, but it is going to be walked on because it is very wide and much more comfortable than the elastic fishnet Lagoon uses for the trampolines.

There is a single large storage locker in the bow with a very heavy lid. The lid has no handle or finger indent for using it. One opens it by getting your fingertips underneath the 1/8" gap between the lid and deck and pulling strongly with your fingernails. Once opened a bit, the gas struts take over and the lid comes up easily. Putting it back down is dangerous. When the lid gets 3/4 of the way down, the struts give up and the lid slams down hard. Right on your fingers because there is no handle or relief set into the lid. I almost lost a finger, but pulled my hand away just in time. The lid/locker interface is of a guillotine design and someone will get hurt.

The bow seats built into the pulpits were simply a piece of plywood cut to shape with the endgrains fully exposed. It was not sealed or coated in any way. I am giving Lagoon the benefit of the doubt here and thinking that they forgot to install the seats at the factory and the plywood cutouts were done at the last minute at the show. Although forgetting to install a piece of the boat at the factory brings other doubts to mind.

The helm design sweeping the catamaran market is one of the helmsman being completely exposed to the elements so that the coachroof can be seamlessly extended back across the whole cockpit. The Lagoon 4000 follows this trend. There is a cutout in the solid coachroof extension so that the poor skipper can burn himself, freeze himself or soak himself (or herself, but most women have more sense than to get on the helm in these designs). The coach roof is so high that even standing up on the raised helm a 5'11" person (me) can't see the opposite corner or side of the boat. The helmseat is the ubiquitous bench seat with a small round cushioned bar hitting you in the back in just the right place to cause incredible pain. I have never understood these types of backrests, but they are on many boats. The bench seat provides no lateral support and, coupled with its height above water, will be very uncomfortable and tiring in rough seas. But again, most of the charter market boats have this type of seat, so maybe I'm missing their charms.

Of course, there was no way to evaluate the sailing performance, but I was standing next to a woman who asked the Lagoon rep how the boat handled storms. His response was "you won't need to worry about bad weather because this boat can out-sail any storm". So I guess the sailing performance is superb and on par with the likes of Playstation.

The market competition for the Lagoon 400 is the FP Lipari. The Lipari also has a lot of flawed compromises, but it is a far, far superior boat than the Lagoon 400.

On the other hand, the Lagoon 400 was chock full of people drooling over it saying it is the best catamaran ever produced. So what do I know...

Just my observations and opinions,

Mark
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:22   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brogan007 View Post
The Mainecat 41 was superb inside & out. AND the pleasant gentleman sitting on duty lacked the " 'tude " of many of the other sales dicks.
This is really funny, because it's possible the gentleman was none other than the founder of MaineCat himself, "Dick" Vermeulen. Check him out, here: Maine Cat 30 Designer

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Old 10-10-2009, 09:29   #21
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Yes, it was Dick on the boat. He is a stand-up guy - nice and very knowledgeable. Gives the impression he is more interested in you getting the right boat rather than his boat.

Mark
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Old 10-10-2009, 10:33   #22
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I went through the list of boats and there where 28 cat's and Tri's on exhibit. I am going to compare this to Miami this year because I think Annapolis may have more on display. I was really disappointed in the Miami show last year. This year they are apparently moving the Strictly Sail show from Bayside and putting the boats with the power boats.

Any opinions on the Nautitech 44?
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:11   #23
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Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
I can do you one better with that, a cruiser named Evan here designed that for Farr yachts. Send him a PM. I'll also look at the boat show, but I'm not aware of any cats that use composits as backing plates. Is there a particular manufacturer you're looking at?
Good Day Schoonerdog,
Sorry, I didn't get back, busy building. I am intending to use Equiplite's soft loop chain plates and also to fit some for lifting points. You are right that they would be mostly fitted to mono-hulls. I am fairly isolated and looking for ideas and concepts. Thank you for the opportunity.
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:05   #24
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Some pictures of interesting bimini tops on some mono cockpits would be much appreciated Schoonerdog...thanks.
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Old 12-10-2009, 23:54   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brogan007 View Post
As a first timer at the show yesterday, I was blown away at the real-life size of the 40 ft cats.
I mean, they're huge inside. omg!
I'd assumed a 44-50 ft was reqd for comfort & space....but not at all.
Not sure, yet, how they can move...I'll find out on my winter Cat charter....but they sure are spacious.
The Mainecat 41 was superb inside & out. AND the pleasant gentleman sitting on duty lacked the " 'tude " of many of the other sales dicks!
I'd love to charter a crewed version in the BVI's if I could
Yep, as Tao Jones said, the pleasant gent was Dick Vermeulen who basically takes the attitude of, "if you like the boat I'm here to talk, if you don't like it that's okay too". He is clearly a guy who is doing what he loves, designing, building and delivering pretty good boats.

Maine Cats can be chartered out of Hopetown, Abacos, Bahamas. While it is missing the cachet of the BVIs, the Abacos are just a fantastic place for a charter. Lots of places to go including some great beaches, plenty of wind to go for some beautiful sails along with exquisitely beautiful water, friendly people, etc, etc.

Fun with the crowd (Great Guana Cay)!
Click image for larger version

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12.5 knots with a 16 yr old teen at the helm for the first time (no worries, just grins)!
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Quiet anchorage with drinks "poolside" (Manjack Cay).
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Fair Winds,
Mike
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Old 13-10-2009, 03:48   #26
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Originally Posted by Brogan007 View Post
As a first timer at the show yesterday, I was blown away at the real-life size of the 40 ft cats.
I mean, they're huge inside. omg!
I'd assumed a 44-50 ft was reqd for comfort & space....but not at all.....
LOL... I think of my boat as Dr. Who's TARDIS. A 40 ft cat= 60 ft monohull. My little Catalac has more interior than a 38 ft mono.

How much room does a guy need?
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Old 13-10-2009, 05:36   #27
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Ahem, I saw it also but did not go aboard. Walking by it certainly caught my attention, the floating docks were maybe 18 inches off the water and I'm 6'5". I don't think I was eye level with it's deck, it was a virtual wall of fiberglass. But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... they'll probably sell thousands of them.

And as my disclaimer I had about the same reation when walking past the Shannon 52.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I was on the Lagoon 400 yesterday. Without a doubt, this was the worst catamaran I have ever been on. I dislike writing that, but I was shocked at what I found and can't believe a manufacturer is trying to put something like that boat out for sale. This boat was designed only for sitting on a dock, and it isn't even a good boat for that. I have become used to condomarans and charter boats, and give them credit for filling their design goals and market niche. I can give no credit to the Lagoon 400.

Where to start?

The galley has zero (none, not even a teeny tiny bit) of storage space. I thought maybe one could put a couple of dishes in the lone small ~18"x10" cupboard, but when I opened it, a tiny microwave was stuffed into it. The rest of the galley cabinetry was filled with a fridge, freezer and a small trash bin. Maybe future Lagoon 400 owners only eat frozen burritos and have no need for dishes, pots, pans and silverware?

The stbd owners hull is immense and open with no bulkheads dividing up the space (I am not listing this as a bad point - until later). However, the floorboards in the hulls creak, moan, move and spring as you walk on them. Really, really badly. None of them are secure, or can be secured, and I was concerned about falling through them they are so unsupported and cheap. Did I mention cheap?

The rest of the inside has similar cheap fit and finish throughout.

The engine compartments are very deep and poorly sealed. The boat at the show was delivered by ship from France to Baltimore and motored the short trip down to Annapolis, where the mast was stepped and rigged. Both engine compartments had leaked enough during the brief life of this boat that the exhaust manifolds were rusted and the exhaust elbows were severely rusted. There were no steps or easy access into or out of the ~6' deep engine compartments.

Walking up the starboard side deck, I was surprised to find the deck flexing and bouncing 1/8" like a trampoline! I weigh 160lbs wet and could deflect the deck 1/4" by gently bouncing up and down on it. Here is where having no bulkheads interfering with the interior volume manifests itself.

Both anchor rollers were pathetically undersized and installed on the cross beam with 1/4" aluminum pop rivets. One of the rollers was already pulling out the rivets. The rollers are simply unusable - even for just displaying a small stainless anchor at the dock. The fiberglass catwalk connecting the bridgedeck to the cross beam and guiding the anchor chain to the roller flexed alarmingly when stood on - probably 1" or more (again, I weigh 160lbs wet). The catwalk is designed mostly only for use as a chain guide, but it is going to be walked on because it is very wide and much more comfortable than the elastic fishnet Lagoon uses for the trampolines.

There is a single large storage locker in the bow with a very heavy lid. The lid has no handle or finger indent for using it. One opens it by getting your fingertips underneath the 1/8" gap between the lid and deck and pulling strongly with your fingernails. Once opened a bit, the gas struts take over and the lid comes up easily. Putting it back down is dangerous. When the lid gets 3/4 of the way down, the struts give up and the lid slams down hard. Right on your fingers because there is no handle or relief set into the lid. I almost lost a finger, but pulled my hand away just in time. The lid/locker interface is of a guillotine design and someone will get hurt.

The bow seats built into the pulpits were simply a piece of plywood cut to shape with the endgrains fully exposed. It was not sealed or coated in any way. I am giving Lagoon the benefit of the doubt here and thinking that they forgot to install the seats at the factory and the plywood cutouts were done at the last minute at the show. Although forgetting to install a piece of the boat at the factory brings other doubts to mind.

The helm design sweeping the catamaran market is one of the helmsman being completely exposed to the elements so that the coachroof can be seamlessly extended back across the whole cockpit. The Lagoon 4000 follows this trend. There is a cutout in the solid coachroof extension so that the poor skipper can burn himself, freeze himself or soak himself (or herself, but most women have more sense than to get on the helm in these designs). The coach roof is so high that even standing up on the raised helm a 5'11" person (me) can't see the opposite corner or side of the boat. The helmseat is the ubiquitous bench seat with a small round cushioned bar hitting you in the back in just the right place to cause incredible pain. I have never understood these types of backrests, but they are on many boats. The bench seat provides no lateral support and, coupled with its height above water, will be very uncomfortable and tiring in rough seas. But again, most of the charter market boats have this type of seat, so maybe I'm missing their charms.

Of course, there was no way to evaluate the sailing performance, but I was standing next to a woman who asked the Lagoon rep how the boat handled storms. His response was "you won't need to worry about bad weather because this boat can out-sail any storm". So I guess the sailing performance is superb and on par with the likes of Playstation.

The market competition for the Lagoon 400 is the FP Lipari. The Lipari also has a lot of flawed compromises, but it is a far, far superior boat than the Lagoon 400.

On the other hand, the Lagoon 400 was chock full of people drooling over it saying it is the best catamaran ever produced. So what do I know...

Just my observations and opinions,

Mark
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