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Old 09-12-2015, 11:17   #16
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

In the event you change to hydraulic steering, keep in mind that you will also have to incorporate your autopilot into the new hydraulic lines. The Sea Star system from Hynautics has an adjustment that will allow you to vary the lock to lock turns. Comes in handy when a novice is at the helm and tends to "steer" too much.
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Old 09-12-2015, 13:17   #17
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

Suggest you talk to local commercial boats-fishing,etc. & ask what brands they use & are happy with. 7 turns is "normal" in fishing boats that still have manual hydraulic locally & it's a pain. However,less turns means more effort required to turn steering wheel which may be a concern on a heavy displacement boat. That is one reason for humongous diameter steering wheels-to give more leverage.
A steering supplier that knows what he is talking about will suggest a larger volume helm pump in your situation & will select 2 rams with correct volume to match your helm pump volume & give you the hard over time you want.
You just haven't found the right salesman yet.

Good luck / Len
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Old 09-12-2015, 18:39   #18
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

I placed just a Lecomble & Smitt. Works fine but the downsides on this are:
1. The connection pin for the tillerarm is not included and have you to orden seperated. Is also expensive for wat it is.
2. There were he is connectet on the hull is ther to mutch movement and make he on this way a lot of noice. No idea wat this will gif after a few oceans.
3. There was onley 15 cm. cheap kopper cabel after the pump wit a cheap connection on the end. this have to be a tin cabele and longer for a dirrect connection on the computer.

But they work fine.
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Old 10-12-2015, 19:57   #19
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

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Originally Posted by Maika View Post
My catamaran, a 40ft one-off, is steered by Ultraflex cabels, which I find really bad. The only reasonably prized option is hydraulics. (It is not possible to have a physical tie-rod beetween the rudders.)
I contacted Vetus, but their solution will give me a 7 turn lock-to-lock, which I find way to much.
I have also contacted HyDrive, which claim their Fluid-Link is excelent when not having a tie-rod, but have so far got no response from their Norwegian partner.
My next try will be LECOMBLE & SCHMITT, but are there other manufacturers I should have a look at?
I believe the Norwegian Distributor has become a casualty of the GFC. If you go to HyDrive website and go to the UK distributor's contact details, they carry stocks of most items and are very good technical people. They do large number of cats in UK with HyDrive because of the high quality and performance of the HyDrive fluid-link system without mechanical tie-bar. Not all manufacturer's can handle the fluid-link circuit efficiently due to the type of seals used in their cylinders - which is critical to keeping the cylinders in synch.

Alternatively you can go directly to sales@hydrive.com.au for direct supply from Australia.

I hope this helps,

Cheers
Grahame
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Old 11-12-2015, 07:02   #20
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

I asked the Vetus guy about the number of turns, and this is what he answerd:
Quote:
Well, not quite sure what to say now!
I just spoke with the Vetus factory about the 2-cylinder set up, and it seems we have all been misled over the years!!
Two cylinders doubles the force required to turn the rudder, so a large wheel is required.
It does not double the turns!!!
The two cylinders should be joined by the hydraulic tie-bar we communicated on before. You must use a pump with 'R' as it has a non return valve.
If two helm pumps and two cylinders are used, the situation is the same as one helm pump and two cylinders.
Sorry to have misled you, but there it is see part of email from Holland below:
Please look at the drawing you can connect a second pump on the cylinder with a T-piece.
(Drawing supplied was the one I sent you the other day showing the hl ydraulic tie-bar)
fYou still have 3,5 turns but the force that you need to turn the helm will be double.
You will only have 3.5 turns with 2 x cylinder!!!!
So I guess Vetus is again one of my options, but since there are positive opinions about cable steering I think I am first going to try to tune what I have.
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:07   #21
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

Here is a link to steering information. Read past the "historical" stuff until you get to catamaran hydraulic steering. It appears you will need an external hull to hull tie rod or a hydraulic trimming valve in order to keep the rudders synchronized.
I have experience with single rudder hydraulic steering of various brands & they all work on same principles. The check valve you speak of is required in a dual helm installation. The check valve(s) are to prevent hydraulic fluid from going backwards through the un-used helm. Seastar-Teleflex_Capilano helms are all equipped with these check valves,but apparently Vetus uses 2 different helms.
There are some piping diagrams & other information that may help you.

Cheers/ Len


Travelling Steerage – the evolution of steering systems | Catamaran Concepts
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Old 12-12-2015, 19:24   #22
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

On my cat I had a commercial grade Vetus pump and also a commercial grade Vetus ram. I sold the cat last year after over 90k miles sailed with system still working fine. No repair and no adjusting Hydraulic fluid necessary. Unfortunately I'm for winter a landlubber in Florida and have no details on hand, these are on papers in Europe.

The connection to the other rudder was by tie-rod. That was for me a must as I have recognized so many problems with not aligned rudders on cats with two pistons (one one each rudder and hydraulic tie rod).

Sure not from the beginning but after some use. I've recognized a Catana with not aligned rudder on a passage from the US East coast to the Azores, an other Catana 40 in 2002 (relatively recent built) in Pto Calero/Canary Islands and an Outremer 55 during a Multihull Cup in Mallorca.

In regard of the future maintenance I would choose if a metal tie rod is not makeable with textile or cable tie rod as I had it on my previous Venezia 42. Thats my opionion so far, I agree other opinions and I'm interested to follow this thread.

Fair winds
James
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Old 12-12-2015, 21:31   #23
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

I have a hydraulic link between rudders, and so far (27,000 nm now) it's worked fine.
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Old 12-12-2015, 21:45   #24
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I have a hydraulic link between rudders, and so far (27,000 nm now) it's worked fine.
How did you align the rudders initially, and how hard would it be to re-align them?
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Old 12-12-2015, 21:56   #25
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

I have bypass valves on both rams, you only really need one, but having them on both makes bleeding the system easier. To align I just get one rudder straight, (the one with the AP rudder reference on it) then open the bypass on the other and push it into alignment. Then shut the valve.


Of course having kick-up rudders makes all this a lot easier... ;-D
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Old 12-12-2015, 22:02   #26
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

Called the friend with the pull-pull cable steering system.


It's made by Edson. He's had it on the boat for quite a while now, it's been very reliable. They are quite heavy SS cables I think.


The Edson website is pretty woeful as far as getting info on this system though. It just shows some of the bits available, doesn't really explain the system. My friend couldn't find any boat type people who had much idea about it either. Ended up buying his system through a mower shop! Probably saved a fortune going that way though.


If you navigate your way through here, you can sort of work it out.... Pull-Pull/Conduit Steering : Edson Marine Store
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Old 13-12-2015, 00:45   #27
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maika View Post
My catamaran, a 40ft one-off, is steered by Ultraflex cabels, which I find really bad. The only reasonably prized option is hydraulics. (It is not possible to have a physical tie-rod beetween the rudders.)
I contacted Vetus, but their solution will give me a 7 turn lock-to-lock, which I find way to much.
I have also contacted HyDrive, which claim their Fluid-Link is excelent when not having a tie-rod, but have so far got no response from their Norwegian partner.
My next try will be LECOMBLE & SCHMITT, but are there other manufacturers I should have a look at?
I read this and it sounds like my set up problem , too much play at the wheel .
I changed my helm to a rotary but there was little change in the amount of slack , then I changed the push-pull set up to pull -pull , again little improvement . So , like you I am thinking of going to hydraulic but there seems a lack of decipherable information on designing a system , as many have said , the makers / salesman just sell components without much in way of consultation .
my 11.5 cat was better when new but it has never had accurate steering and the downside of this is the autopilot works continually trying to account for the play .
I am looking at the small powerboat type hydraulic types and , against my wishes , fitting a tie bar !
How are you getting on with your design choices ?
regards ,
Graham
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Old 13-12-2015, 03:14   #28
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

I worked on the steering of local ferry that had split rudders function.When docking,a switch was used to disconnect the port & stbd rudders so that they could be operated independently at different angles.
The method used was:
(a)one electric hydraulic pump per rudder
(b)one rudder position sender per rudder
(c) one rudder angle meter per rudder.

The rudder position senders were the same units you would use for an autopilot-just variable resistors (potentiometers).
Note:The autopilot used it's own separate rudder sender & it was connected to only one rudder,since the pilot would not be used during docking.

While steaming,the two rudder senders were wired like a wheatstone bridge such that any angle difference between rudders un-balanced this wheatstone bridge & caused the electric hydraulic pump of the "slave" rudder to re-align with the master rudder until the wheatstone was balanced. Any difference in angle between the 2 rudders was visible on the 2 rudder angle meters. The rudder splitting switch was used to open the balance circuit so that rudders could be operated independently during docking or other situations.

I realize this system is over the top for a cruising cat & relies on electric pumps which would be a battery drain while sailing.

The dual rudder senders & meters would at least show mis-aligned rudders.
Perhaps some clever reader can design a similar system that uses a solenoid valve or whatever to automatically re-align rudders in a manual hydraulic system.

Cheers/ Len
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Old 13-12-2015, 06:34   #29
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by onavegador View Post
I've recognized a Catana with not aligned rudder on a passage from the US East coast to the Azores, an other Catana 40 in 2002 (relatively recent built) in Pto Calero/Canary Islands and an Outremer 55 during a Multihull Cup in Mallorca.
Just for completeness, most Catanas have solid mechanical, rack and pinion steering. Some original buyers, however, chose hydraulic steering. They do have occasional rudder mis-alignment, fixed by use of a bypass valve on one side.

Dave
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Old 16-12-2015, 08:22   #30
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Re: Which hydraulic steering should I choose?

Our Outremer 45 (2003) has the liquid cross bar driven by a vetus pump using L and S cylinders and It works well mechanically . The feeling is a bit dead but it is robust .I believe all of the old style Outremers used the same system.
If you can I would try to stay mechanical as the feel is better.

As for not being able to use a cross bar let me say this .When we where designing the steering for the PDQ36 we thought about all wire from one side to the other But that was going to be messy and complicated . In the end we used a Witlock pull/pull system to a standard quadrant on the port side .we also attached a slave tiller arm there which via a cross bar went to the starboard side .So what you say ,our biggest concern was that the tillerbar was aft of the rear beam and out in the open and would not be accepted by the customers . It was never an issue . perhaps that might work for you
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