Which Cat to Buy?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Factor

And of course what 2big2small missed is the title of the thread

I doubt that he missed it, what with it being in the Multihull area of CF as well. Just another CF cat basher doing the usual.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

Maybe I missed it, but did the OP say what his budget is?

Not exactly, but he did say "Sadly cost is an issue, hence I will be looking at boats in the 10 Year old plus bracket."

And he is looking at production cats in the 43-48ft range.

Between those two, that gives a fair indication of his budget.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Interesting Cyan, sort of reflects the market - some more unscientific data - total sailing catamarans advertised on Yacht World by Brand
Lagoon 371
FP 236
Leopard 86
Privilege 58
Catana 51
Outremer 26
Prout 23
Crowther 10

Good stuff, Bean Counter!
In the spirit of unscientific analysis, I threw in your market data (and a couple more brands), normalized, and plotted for comparison. It DOES nicely correlate: the cat brands % for sale roughly match the brands that made the PPJ crossing the last 3 years. BUT- two brands do not follow this curve:
1. Privilege- had many more boats cross to Tahiti than are for sale relatively.
2. Nautitech- has many more boats for sale relatively than made the Tahiti crossing.

I'm sure there are other factors, but roughly Privilege seems to be sort of a winner here: most popular cat to recently cross the Pacific as a percentage of same brand hulls currently for sale worldwide. Literally, a participation trophy!

Chart attached...

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by StuM

Not exactly, but he did say "Sadly cost is an issue, hence I will be looking at boats in the 10 Year old plus bracket."

And he is looking at production cats in the 43-48ft range.

Between those two, that gives a fair indication of his budget.

Yes, I caught that, but it's still quite a large range, give or take several hundred thousand. Hard to narrow down without a more realistic estimation of how much money the OP wants to spend for the initial purchase. Sort of leaves the window open for between $300-$600k. I'm not trying to take the piss here, but if he really wants advice, it would be nice to know how much he is looking to spend for the purchase, and what his reserve is for after purchase preparation and enhancement. That would help a lot with model selection... no?

[UFO]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

As a full time liveaboard I’m only interested in boats with decent amenities. If you’re the racer kind of guy then we’ll have wildly different opinions.

Right now the cheapest Lagoon on YW built between 2006 and 2010 is a 2007 380 S2, ex charter, third hand, for 150k euro. It has pretty shitty interior amenities in my humble opinion. You’d have to get one with the owner’s hull to make it allright but that’s probably at least 20k extra.

The cheapest Beneteau Oceanis 50' are priced at 12k less! There are at least 3 from 2007 and 2008 at this price. This model has a brilliant layout, the galley by itself is almost as big as the whole saloon of the Lagoon. There’s a centerline walkaround berth with ensuite in the owner’s cabin. How could I not choose the 50’ mono over the 38’ Lagoon?

(I think comparing the Beneteau Oceanis range with Lagoons is one of the fairest ways to do it since these boats are conceived with the same “cruising over racing” philosophy by the same group.)

I am a Mono Sailor and Love the Oysters and Super Amel Maramu - I currently own a UFO 34, but I started this thread, as a Mono for Cruising the world and living on with 2 children is not going to work for me - Its a combination of issues:
Rolling Downwind
Heeling
Rolling at Anchor

These are issues that may not bother others, but for me and my family it is a deal breaker for a mono.

I wish it wasn't because you can get some very nice monos for the price of an average cat!

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

Yes, I caught that, but it's still quite a large range, give or take several hundred thousand. Hard to narrow down without a more realistic estimation of how much money the OP wants to spend for the initial purchase. Sort of leaves the window open for between $300-$600k. I'm not trying to take the piss here, but if he really wants advice, it would be nice to know how much he is looking to spend for the purchase, and what his reserve is for after purchase preparation and enhancement. That would help a lot with model selection... no?

Around $300K for a set up crusing cat in Very good condition - Bit of pocket money for things that need to be done and a reasonable slush fund for things that go kaput.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by cyan

Good stuff, Bean Counter!
In the spirit of unscientific analysis, I threw in your market data (and a couple more brands), normalized, and plotted for comparison. It DOES nicely correlate: the cat brands % for sale roughly match the brands that made the PPJ crossing the last 3 years. BUT- two brands do not follow this curve:
1. Privilege- had many more boats cross to Tahiti than are for sale relatively.
2. Nautitech- has many more boats for sale relatively than made the Tahiti crossing.

I'm sure there are other factors, but roughly Privilege seems to be sort of a winner here: most popular cat to recently cross the Pacific as a percentage of same brand hulls currently for sale worldwide. Literally, a participation trophy!

Chart attached...

Priviledges are build like the preverbial brick outhouse, but yet sail surprisingly well for such stocky cats. If you are considering lots of offshore work, a Priveledge would certainly be worthy candidate.

[CatNewBee]

I dont think, the Lagoons are that bad, provided their large usage in charter by newbees, they do a pretty good job and seem to be built very robust.

Many blue water sailor prefer the 440 or 450 as a perfect liveaboard cat.

The 400 / 400S2 is OK too, but has very little storage for clothes. She needs some refit, her hulls are more spacious in contrast to the 40 footer's of FP & Leopard / Nautitech, so much better ...

They sail as charter boats along the blue water routes (Med, Caribbean, Pacific, Seychelles) in the same wind conditions all the time and they survive some tropical storms quite well.....

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by UFO

Around $300K for a set up crusing cat in Very good condition - Bit of pocket money for things that need to be done and a reasonable slush fund for things that go kaput.

OK, that's a good start. Is it $300Au or USD? Makes a big difference.

A few more questions if you don't mind, and please forgive me if you have covered this already. These are just my thoughts, having researched the market for many years now. We are in a similar position to you, and sincerely wish you all the best moving forward!!

It all revolves around budget. Remember to keep a healthy contingency.

1. Are you planning to keep the boat in Au? If so, have you made allowances for the very expensive importation process? If you are planning on using Au as a home base, you will likely be better off buying an already imported vessel, which can often affect purchase price domestically. If you are planning, to cruise, and not have the boat returned to Au, your options for purchase are better.

2. $300K as a base price will limit the size and condition of the boat you wish to purchase, especially if your budget is in Au dollars. If you want a 43-48 foot production cat you will have to look older than 10 years. Especially if you want one that is in "good to go" condition. They usually all need some form of work before they are "good to go". and it would be wise to set aside another $50K for misc. stuff that needs doing. That's a reasonably generous, but not unrealistic budget.

3. Don't limit yourself to production boats. Au makes some great boats. Grainger, Perry, Lightwave, Seawind... etc... Also, in you budget, you might have to look smaller, more in the 40 foot range to find what you are looking for. A lot of the boats mentioned, like Lagoon 440 and Leopard 46 are simply not doable on your budget. Great thoughts, but if your budget is firm at $300 ready to go, you will be hard pressed to find one that will fall into your range. Even the Leopard 42, 43, 45 47 are likely just out of reach. There are owner version Lagoon 410's which would fit your budget. Smaller than what you want, but I think you will find it hard to source a larger vessel in your price range. Not impossible, just unlikely.

4. Remember that 4 cabin models will be harder to resell no matter which model you chose. They are initially less expensive, and might work for you, but keep in mind that you might have to sit on it to sell, or lower the price when the time comes to resell.

5. Don't be afraid of older boats. Often they are better built than the newer ones, and can represent a significantly better value.

Off to soccer with my daughter

Good luck!! Steve

[cyan]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Priviledges are build like the preverbial brick outhouse, but yet sail surprisingly well for such stocky cats. If you are considering lots of offshore work, a Priveledge would certainly be worthy candidate.

We dismissed Privilege in our own search a while back after looking at an 18 year old Privilege 42 due to the old school galley-down layout. After doing a little Yachtworld searching just now, it appears that my dismissal was premature. The newer 435 seems to have a galley-up, albeit a single step lower than the rest of the saloon. (?)

Belizesailor, your "brick outhouse" description of Privilege grabbed my attention (and prompted my better research) due to the longer passages scratched onto our hopeful world map. I've read many good words on this forum regarding Privilege capability, but I'm curious about the details of the bricks. What sets Privilege apart from the typical charter cats? Thicker GRP? Better rigging? Tougher hatches/mechanical bits?

As an engineer, I can appreciate the obvious stuff on a Privilege, such as the extreme radius from the hull to bridgedeck underside. The almost-horizontal front saloon windows have me a bit worried about floating in the tropics, though. I think way back to my 1984 Nissan 200SX (huge) hatchback window that always created a hot greenhouse in Southern California...

[catsketcher]

As to the dismissal of galley down - I would urge reconsideration.

Friends just changed from one cat to another and are not happy with the loss of galley space they have with the galley up. They have lost about 3 square metres of galley counter with the galley up. She was not happy at all and liked their old boat better. Now their French cat has a piece of wood to cover the sink so they can have some more galley space. It is that tight.

I am happy with the long, deep and voluminous galley down on our cat. It also moves less in a seaway than the galley up. So it may be fashionable, like slopey windows on the Privilege, but a galley down can make a lot of sense unless you get over 40ft or so. It can be great to leave the washing up and not see it from the cabin.

cheers

Phil

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by cyan

We dismissed Privilege in our own search a while back after looking at an 18 year old Privilege 42 due to the old school galley-down layout. After doing a little Yachtworld searching just now, it appears that my dismissal was premature. The newer 435 seems to have a galley-up, albeit a single step lower than the rest of the saloon. (?)

Belizesailor, your "brick outhouse" description of Privilege grabbed my attention (and prompted my better research) due to the longer passages scratched onto our hopeful world map. I've read many good words on this forum regarding Privilege capability, but I'm curious about the details of the bricks. What sets Privilege apart from the typical charter cats? Thicker GRP? Better rigging? Tougher hatches/mechanical bits?

As an engineer, I can appreciate the obvious stuff on a Privilege, such as the extreme radius from the hull to bridgedeck underside. The almost-horizontal front saloon windows have me a bit worried about floating in the tropics, though. I think way back to my 1984 Nissan 200SX (huge) hatchback window that always created a hot greenhouse in Southern California...

I dont have specifics on Priviledge construction, just some of the points you noted, plus high freeboard, good bridge deck clearance/shape, and from having run a number of them a general good impression of the strength & quality of their build.

While I think the vertical windows of the Lagoon have more advantages, the lower angle windows of many cats like the Priviledge are not really a big practical issue. Mesh sun screen covers help to reduce the green house affect, but retain some visibilty. Sun awnings at anchor over the windows/deckhouse help a LOT.

IIRC they have Goit hatches which are a big improvement over the Lewmar junk on many production boats.

Main salon is small by most late model cat standards, a bit more pilot house like. Cockpit is huge though to compensate.

These comments are based on boats like the Priviledge 44.

[TonyBe]

Originally Posted by Rigger Bruce

I see many cats come through here and being a rigger I would say stay away from,lagoons

Originally Posted by UFO

Otherwise I hear good things about lagoons from people who own them and not so good from people who don't
It's hard to figure out how ocean going they are??

Originally Posted by Robinski

From there we have realised that comfort has to trump performance for our life experience and we are now looking between the Bahia 46, lagoon 440 and also a privilege 435.
On big consideration for us is the comfort at sea, we will be spending most of our time crusing but as we are heading off for a circumnavigation we will need good ocean going characteristics.

Interestingly, given the above comments, I've recently come across a Youtube channel of a British couple who have recently bought a new Lagoon 450s.

It was really interesting to see their first few weeks with it (they're quite a chatty and engaging couple). It seems that they had a lot of problems with minor issues with the boat and even lost the forestay at one point in the first two weeks due to a stripped bolt.

Apparently, they're going to be taking part in the ARC so, given the start date of the ARC, I guess that they're probably just about to leave.

This is the episode where it all goes a bit wrong for them with theforestay in Ibiza, but it really is worth watching from the beginning of their videos:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBmQcGv_wAI

[200MPH]

UFO, I'm in your part of the world and don't see how you will get what you have described without blowing your budget by half again!
Seawind 1160 cruise ready 400-450k.
Fusion 40 similar.
As for mid 40 ft range, I looked on and off for a while and can't see it in Australia for that coin and 10 or so years old.

We came from living on a 42 mono (no kids, then a baby). But a Seawind 1160 is massively different in terms of space. Now, we're not cruising, but for days at a time it works for our 2/kids and us.
Also, galley down is good. Wife and I thought galley up was better before, but galley down uses the one hull space much more efficiently, and frees up the saloon. Without trying a galley up, for now we think galley down gives a massive and useable galley efficiently. And with a Seawind, all the side window makes it very open down there.

Good luck in your search!

[arsenelupiga]

yeah, looks like to me with 300k you are looking at Seawind 1000. Cutting the dream from 45ft t0 33

don't worry, we all gone thru this.

you can try as suggested by some to reconsider mono. they are not selling, as every sailor with partner pretty much chooses cat, and prices are really cheap.

I tried to convince my wife for older 50 ft but no sympathy there. Kitchen with 360 view is a must.