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Old 01-09-2012, 13:46   #16
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

What is this "slot"?
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Old 01-09-2012, 18:10   #17
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Outremers faster than Catanas. At least the older models. I bet some weight difference there.

b.
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Old 02-09-2012, 15:59   #18
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

I believe he is speaking of the angle produced between the centerline of the boat and the line between the tack of the headsail on the centerline to where it is sheeted to. There are ideal angles for this value.
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Old 03-09-2012, 00:58   #19
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazcatana View Post
Bazcatana: Tuning up you Catamaran

I have just been asked to explain what I asked the designer of Catana Catamarans, which was, why is the slot so wide on the Catana, my notes are on the boat but I measured from the center line out to the Track Car which was 14 deg off center line.

Monohulls have 9.3 deg, and I asked what could I close it down too, when you look at self tacking Blade Jibs with a closed slot, the answer was 12 deg, it does not sound a lot but the power increase was impressive.

Putting a new track in the Coach roof was easy, it was all the moving of Winches that put me off. What I did was get an over-the-top block and positioned that on the back end of the Track (engineering job) bought a Flip-Flop block off Harken and used that to get my sheets back out to the original track & Winch, not good you say, too many blocks for smooth running, see below.

When you let go of the sheet, the little bit of extra friction with 2 more blocks in the line HELPED, it held the sheet firm, without it flying out of control.

I did some extra Engineering to get the sheets to come around the corner at 90 deg and connect to the Winch along the rear beam. Now I stand there on my own if need be, press the buttons for self tacking, let the sheet go and haul in on my 7:1 Hexa-Ratchet main sheet Offshore block system.

Yes that's right, an Offshore Hexa-Ratchet 7:1 QUICK RELEASE, one quick flick of the wrist and the sheet is gone in a gust.

I would send photos if I knew how you do that here.

All I can offer is my Email and I will send photos.
bazcatanaATyahooDOTcoDOTuk

Glad to be of help for once. There will be other times I can help as well, message to the doubting Thomas's out there.

Best regards

Barry Parkinson
Thanks Baz, 12degrees is what my sailmaker reckoned for my old Beach Marine, went pretty good. I've seen some pretty nice & clever stuff set up by those with the knowledge, best one was on a boat I raced on where Michael Spies & Ian Short supplied a rig & sail package for an older IOR boat..... massive transformation!
All the best in your endeavours from Jeff.
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:09   #20
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazcatana View Post
I have just been asked to explain what I asked the designer of Catana Catamarans,
Which designer? The original designer (Loch Crowther) is sailing the big ocean in the sky now. But he did work a lot with Barreau and his influence remains at least in part
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:10   #21
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Oh that slot. Well, yeah I know about that. It just seemed difficult to understand exactly what he meant so I thought I should ask. George, why the headbanging?

Thank you for answering.
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:39   #22
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian cat View Post
I am a mono convert and learning about multi's.I am a racer at heart and want a world cruiser that sails well.I have read a few times that some the older Cantanas are faster. Which models are the faster ones.

Currently my top three cats are the Freydis 46/49, Outremmer 50/55 light, and the Conser 47. How would any of the sugested Cantanas compare to these boats..
Bazcatana here asking a question about Catana's and which one is faster.

I have a Catana 381 with a Bruce number of 1.29 - Flat Top Mainsail, Calverts Dyneema Hydranet Genoa full size 45m2 plus 45m2 main 90m2.

Catana 431 - Bruce number 1.32

Catana 471 - Bruce number 1.34

I have put the scale rule over all three Catana's and they go up in PROPORTION to each other, increase the length to 43' and the Mast height goes up in proportion to the 381.

Do the same with the 471, and the Mast height, weight and beam all go up in PROPORTION to my 381.

Which one is faster we are asked, can anyone answer this question please or will they all be as fast as each other because the Bruce number indicates that my 381 is not much slower than either the 431 or the 471.

How does it work guys??? my 381 is 5.6 Ton with 1.29 Bruce number, the 431 goes up in weight, mast height/sail area & Beam and the Bruce is 1.32 and so on with the 471 with it's Bruce at 1.34 - are we all as fast as each other or not and we know about longer is better but we don't know about heaver & longer is better.

Try and keep to the facts guys, NO thoughts and feelings, stay with the thread, WHICH ONE IS FASTER????????

BAZ
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:50   #23
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
I believe he is speaking of the angle produced between the centerline of the boat and the line between the tack of the headsail on the centerline to where it is sheeted to. There are ideal angles for this value.
ARE you talking about something I might have said regarding the Sheeting angle of the Genoa off center line.

I posted that I had closed the slot on my Catana 381 down from 14 deg off center line to 12 deg.

If so take a line from forestay back to coach-roof at 12 deg off center-line and position the Track on that line, or inboard of that on a Barbour-hauler like I do - I Barbour-Haul in and out from the Track Car depending on what I need to do, Pinch or Reach.

BAZ
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:12   #24
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Click image for larger version

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Thanks to Sand Crab I was able to upload some photos of 3 of the things I had engineered for my Catana 381:-
1) Closing the slot - I was told all Catana's have wide slots.
2) Prodder pole with a Windex on the end. Yes I sail using this.
3) The compression ladder. Did not need to have this but was advised by my Broker to have it done so I had the Anchor chain guide added as well and now I hang my 3 Fenders between the ladder rungs.

Two other 40' Cats have even smaller slots, I made do with 12 deg and it works very well, I mean very very well, worth doing in my opinion.

Bazcatana
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Old 13-09-2012, 04:07   #25
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Hi Canadian Cat

Our Outremer 45 is fast and doesn't lose much space out on the 50-55 with which i believe shares the same coachroof. We have won 160 mile passge races against Farrier F31 and F28 even in light winds.
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Old 13-09-2012, 04:34   #26
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazcatana View Post
Bazcatana here asking a question about Catana's and which one is faster.

I have a Catana 381 with a Bruce number of 1.29 - Flat Top Mainsail, Calverts Dyneema Hydranet Genoa full size 45m2 plus 45m2 main 90m2.

Catana 431 - Bruce number 1.32

Catana 471 - Bruce number 1.34

I have put the scale rule over all three Catana's and they go up in PROPORTION to each other, increase the length to 43' and the Mast height goes up in proportion to the 381.

Do the same with the 471, and the Mast height, weight and beam all go up in PROPORTION to my 381.

Which one is faster we are asked, can anyone answer this question please or will they all be as fast as each other because the Bruce number indicates that my 381 is not much slower than either the 431 or the 471.

How does it work guys??? my 381 is 5.6 Ton with 1.29 Bruce number, the 431 goes up in weight, mast height/sail area & Beam and the Bruce is 1.32 and so on with the 471 with it's Bruce at 1.34 - are we all as fast as each other or not and we know about longer is better but we don't know about heaver & longer is better.

Try and keep to the facts guys, NO thoughts and feelings, stay with the thread, WHICH ONE IS FASTER????????

BAZ
What is a Bruce number ?
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Old 13-09-2012, 09:36   #27
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Developed by Edmond Bruce, father of the Bruce anchor, the Bruce Number is the square root of the sail area in square feet divided by the cube root of the displacement in pounds. This is similar to the performance indicator Sail Area/Displacement ratio. Both are power-to-weight comparisons. Bruce theorized that the Bruce Number should approximate the speed that a vessel can sail compared to wind speed. If greater than one, the boat can exceed wind speed on some points in some conditions. When comparing boats, it is important to use working sail with 100 percent foretriangle (not the genoa area that is sometimes used in brochures) and half-load displacement.
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Old 13-09-2012, 12:28   #28
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Sounds like a mono hull thing ?
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Old 13-09-2012, 23:53   #29
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bairdag View Post
Hi Canadian Cat

Our Outremer 45 is fast and doesn't lose much space out on the 50-55 with which i believe shares the same coachroof. We have won 160 mile passge races against Farrier F31 and F28 even in light winds.
I must admit... there on only one other boat that smokes like your Outremer...
Mine!!!

I just love that spray coming of the bow...
Also love looking at the back of a realy bit boat..
then we see the side
then we see the bow
Then we don't seem them at all
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Old 14-09-2012, 00:09   #30
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Re: Which Are the Faster Cantanas?

The slot on my Outremer was also too wide. But as we are not racing sailors we don't need fast tacking and quick manouvers we decided against adding another geona rail.. Instead we simply put a snatch block on the genoa sheet between the clew and fairlead and lead it across the coach roof to the other winch.. We then pull the sheet across the coachroof and close the slot. However, there is a limit in that the spreaders are very wide and foul the sail before we can sheet in very far..You will need a geona that does not close to the fairlead...

The snatch block is then used on the outside as we come off the wind to open the slot on a reach..
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