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Old 15-06-2012, 01:02   #1
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Where Did I go Wrong ?

Potentially not the right area for posting, but it is Catamaran related after all......
I often read about alternative approaches to the sale of boats, however I thought I followed the most logical and "normal" route with this guy. Where did I go wrong? Do I really have an abrasive tone or is the comment at the end about the dinghy more abrasive?

(Names used to protect the guilty)

Unfortunately I don't have the first email, but most of it is in the reply below.


> Brad,
>
> Thank you for you interest in the 1996 Tobago "Twin" I have advertised on Cruiser's Forum.
>
> At the price of the Tobago in Martinique, it sounds like a great deal; it's been on Yachtworld for quite awhile. Unfortunately, mine will not be selling that low.
>
> To answer your questions:
>
> Does yours have any Osmosis, how much has it been in the water since new or has it been on hard stand?
>
> No osmosis that I've seen and none noted at the time of survey one year ago. The boat has spent most of it's life in the water as far as I know; I am the second owner. It was taken out of the water in June of 12010 for hurricane season.
>
> What else would I need to know about your vessel? Does it have a soft top bimini with sides, fridge or freezer?
>
> The top bimini canvas and forward Eisenglas windshield panels need replacing. The side and rear panels are all in very good condition. The canvas mainsail cover is also in need of replacement. It has an Adler Barber "Super Cold Machine" refrigerator/freezer with the water cooling option for tropical climates.
>
> Do you have more photos, is there an equipment list and is the price negotible for a quick sale? Will a broker be handling the sale?
>
> I've attached several more photos and an equipment list. No broker; I don't believe there's an honest one on the planet. Though the price is not as low as the Tobago you are negotiating on, it is low for the US and especially so for a two cabin two head version.
>
> Gary
(note that the equipment list was very bare with very little detail - included at the end of this post)



From: "Brad"
To: "Gary"
Subject: Tobago

Very interesting thanks Gary, that boat is a carbon copy of what I am looking at (elsewhere, but mine is a private seller not unlike yourself in situation.) It has green sail covers, Plasma TV, no bimini and a few small differences, but yet the engines have also been upgraded and are interestingly the same hours. I'll now make sure to do some additional research to make sure I'm not being deceived (with a dodgey photo) as one would think this was the same boat as the descriptions are almost identical.

Either way, moreso than that one in Martinique I'd probably prefer the Antigua; whilst it's a couple of years older it's only slightly higher in price, but close enough to a couple of feet longer. I'm not certain on the differences between the models so I'm reviewing that at the moment.

If I can see some more photos to assist in determining the condition of your vessel that would assist with my thinking on this. The Antigua is due back in 3 weeks so if yours is still around I'd be interested in possibly checking out both of them together.

If you are keen to sell and are able to suggest your lowest price I will be in a position to come and view it.


Did you have a survey done when you bought the vessel?

Thanks,

Brad.

From: "Gary"
To: "Brad"
Subject: Tobago

Well Brad,

There may be quite a few "other" Tobagos on the market in the Caribbean, but this certainly sounds like the boat you described...
Gary

From: "Brad"
To: "Gary"
Subject: Tobago

> Hi, this is a private vessel in Martinique so you won't have heard of
> it and I note there are quite a few Tobagos on the market there.
Brad
From: "Gary"
To: "Brad"
Subject: Tobago

> Brad,
>
> Were I in your position (info picked up about me on a forum), I would go after an Antigua. They are faster boats (narrower hulls and larger sailplan than the Tobago), and yes, the extra length would be appreciated. Another one to look for, and a bit better, is the Fountaine Pajot Fidji; built the same time as the Antigua.

No boat that is in the age group and this price range that you find on the used boat market is going to be ready, out of the gate, for a trans-Canal, trans-Pacific voyage. If you wanted to take your time, a Tobago could probably do it, but it would have to be set up for it and if using a delivery crew (as you've mentioned on several posts), the boat will have been beaten up by the time it finally reaches Oz. Instead, you might want to consider sending a boat back as deck cargo, just as Seawinds are sent to the USA. Or a commercial yacht carrier, Seven Star, will have much better rates than Dockwise.
>
> I'm going to take my Tobago out of your consideration.
>
> Gary
>


From: "Brad"
To: "Gary"
Subject: Tobago

You are a strange character to deal with Gary. Sounds like you don't really want to sell your boat at all.

The decision to buy should be mine and not yours.

The Tobago is more than capable of a trip to Australia and they do it all the time. My current plans would see me spending considerable time aboard the boat before bringing it home, slowly, so there are no issues there.

Good luck, you may struggle to sell it with your attitude.


From: "Gary"
To: "Brad"
Subject: Tobago

Y'know, prior to my last email to you, I debated for a number of hours as to how to be nice, say no thanks to continuing communications with you regarding the boat, and not say what I was really thinking. I'll still hold back...

But let's start with answering your most recent email:

I certainly would like to sell the boat, but I'm not desperate; I'd like it to go to a good home. Since the ads on various sites started yesterday, less than 24 hours ago, I've had nine responses (other than yours) asking for more info and photos, with two of those following up by actually picking up the telephone to talk. Not one of those has had the abrasive, pushy attitude that you've shown; just my opinion. But it's also my opinion that I can sell the boat to who I want, and not sell to who I don't. No my friend, I'm the one who decides who will buy this boat, not you.

Regarding the capability of a Tobago sailing to Australia, I never said they couldn't. I said "probably" with the caveat that the boat be set up for it.

Going back to your previous emails:

"I would need know if your vessel was capable of a trip to Australia so sail condition would be appreciated."
That sail information was given in the details/equipment list; Did you even look at it?

"If you can advise what your lowest price may be right now I will potentially make firm commitments to look at it."
My lowest price right now? So that you can come in lower later? Sorry, but if that's how you wanted to play, the starting price to you would have gone up by $20,000.

"Also, does it have a dingy and outboard?"
If it had a dink and outboard it obviously would have been noted in the equipment list.

"Can you provide more photos, or electronics, controls, living area, deck areas, window clarity, aircon, generator etc?"
I live in California, the boat's in Florida, so it wouldn't have been easy to get more photos just for you.

"I would appreciate an electronics spec list like one would see on catamarans.com."
I gave you brand and model numbers of all the electronics onboard, and I have no idea what an electronics spec list like one would see from the Catamaran Company even looks like. But if that's what you require, you really should be going through a broker.




(Specs attached from the first email received show the extent of the information provided)

1996 Fountaine Pajot Tobago 35 “Twin”
Very rare 1996 Tobago 35 two cabin two head owner’s version. Equipment highlights include radar/chart plotter, air conditioning, diesel generator, watermaker, autopilot, solar panels, and windlass. Extensive refit in 2007/2008 included new standing and running rigging, all new electronics, and two new saildrives. The forward crossbeam & seagull striker assembly was recently replaced, and the bottom paint job done in December 2010. The Yanmar 18 HP 2GM20FC diesels have under 1900 hours. At $120,000, this is the lowest priced Tobago in the USA.
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Old 15-06-2012, 01:58   #2
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

have you tried ignore, rather then detailing ang educating him of your issues and feelings???
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Old 15-06-2012, 02:00   #3
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

It ended there when I told him he was a tosser.

The funny parts are "I want the boat to go to a good home."

Is this normal behaviour for someone selling a boat, I mean it's not like it's a horse or a dog after all? !!
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Old 15-06-2012, 03:19   #4
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
It ended there when I told him he was a tosser.

The funny parts are "I want the boat to go to a good home."

Is this normal behaviour for someone selling a boat, I mean it's not like it's a horse or a dog after all? !!
Well it is a normal emotion but not normal behaviour when selling. Most sellers like to feel their pride and joy is going to appreciated by the next owner but usually they are very happy to sell to anyone with money
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Old 15-06-2012, 04:36   #5
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

OMG, the Brad in this exchange seems really weird. I'm assuming you are Gary (it's not clear), and not Brad, because if you're Brad, you really shouldn't be openly admitting to such crass behaviour!

So, assuming you are Gary, that was a good move to drop out of this sale. You are quite right, it is not worth handling idiots like this, I'm sure there will be plenty more buyers out there. And probably ones who are close enough to view it, and sensible enough to get a survey done, rather than making strange accusations! Anyway, who calls a potential seller strange? That's no way to get discount!
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Old 15-06-2012, 04:47   #6
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

i think the vendor was suffering from the "one too many tire kicker syndrome" and you just happened to be "it"
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Old 15-06-2012, 04:48   #7
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

Maybe in context:

Quote:
You are a strange character to deal with Gary. Sounds like you don't really want to sell your boat at all.
came straight after this:

Quote:
I'm going to take my Tobago out of your consideration.
and this:

Quote:
No broker; I don't believe there's an honest one on the planet.
and:

Quote:
but it would have to be set up for it and if using a delivery crew (as you've mentioned on several posts), the boat will have been beaten up by the time it finally reaches Oz.
Taking his boat from MY consideration? Who would do that? Surely that is my decision if I am interested in a boat?

Hardly sounds like someone who wants to sell their boat at all considering that it was advertised as an urgent sale due to health reasons!

What behaviour did Brad exhibit that is so crass given that the vessel was removed from his consideration?


PS: Thanks Atoll, you seem to understand the situation!
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Old 15-06-2012, 05:57   #8
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
i think the vendor was suffering from the "one too many tire kicker syndrome" and you just happened to be "it"
I agree with atoll.
Tire kickers get to all sellers after a short time.

If your really interested in the boat then go look at it.
Who knows, you may take it out of consideration yourself.
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Old 15-06-2012, 06:08   #9
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A price needs to be agreed on prior to inspection which from what i read the buyer tried to establish.
We had price agreed to on a Catana 471 with the broker then flew to New Zealand, boat was ok so we reinforced our offer only to find out the owner was $100 k from our offer.
Wasted $2500 just like that.
Nothing wrong woth asking for bottom dollar,speeds up or ends the negtoiation there and then.
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Old 15-06-2012, 06:17   #10
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

Err... isn't Gary the weirdo in this exchange?
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Old 15-06-2012, 06:20   #11
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

Quote:
Err... isn't Gary the weirdo in this exchange?
Yep, or at least I thought so :-)
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Old 15-06-2012, 06:24   #12
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

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Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
Yep, or at least I thought so :-)
Perhaps SS has her tongue firmly in her cheek
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Old 15-06-2012, 06:29   #13
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Come on Gary!
Where is your version of events?
Where are you Gary?
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Old 15-06-2012, 06:52   #14
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

It's rather difficult to pass judgement on a partial private message trail (partial, b/c Gary seems to quote messages from Brad that are not shown here). Since you're looking for uninformed comments, the judgement I would make from this posting is that you, ausaviator, are looking for affirmation that you are right, and that you want to punish and bully the seller by posting it here. This makes you a bit weird in my books.

With regard to the specific question, the decision to buy is yours, but the decision to sell is his. You have no right to buy his boat.
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Old 15-06-2012, 06:58   #15
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Re: Where Did I go Wrong ?

Standard boat buying protocol is:
1) Find a boat you like
2) Ask for more information and pictures
3) Make the decision if it’s worth the sellers asking price
4) Go back and forth with question and answers
5) Go view the boat
6) Make and offer. Give deposit
7) If seller and buyer cannot agree on price. Get back deposit. Look for another boat.
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