What would you choose: Lagoon 420 or Orana 44?

[jostalli]

I am scheduling charters for both of these boats as I have yet to sail either but I'm asking for opinions on what you would choose to purchase: Lagoon 420 or Orana 44. We are talking 2008 or 2009 charter boats. They are priced almost exactly the same. I have walked all over two Lagoon 420's but have had a difficult time locating an Orana 44 to examine.

My determining factors will be: Live aboard comforts, quality craftsmanship, sailing "motion" (comfort).

The boat will be used for a loosely planned circumnavigation.

I have narrowed my choice to these two boats. The only other boat I would consider is the Lagoon 400.

[Multihull]

I crewed on a 2008 Orana crossing the Atlantic (BVI via Azores to Malaga) and I liked it a lot. Solid boat, good speed and a very nice owner cabin. The boat I was on was fully loaded (water maker, airco, generator). She (Xenia) is for sale in Marmaris at the moment. I have no personal interest in this boat so I think it is allowed to mention. I choose to crew on this one as I could not think of a better sea trial. But I will not buy one. I will save for a Catana.

Only walked the 420 during a boat show so cannot compare sailing.

[jostalli]

So nobody else has an opinion on this choice? I assumed many of you have looked these over and even sailed both. Either could be had for around $300k, which I think is a good value.

[smj]

Originally Posted by jostalli

So nobody else has an opinion on this choice? I assumed many of you have looked these over and even sailed both. Either could be had for around $300k, which I think is a good value.

Neither? For $300k there's a ton of good cats for sale.

[Southern Star]

I agree with SMJ and am unsure why you have limited your choice to just these two boats. Regardless, I haven't sailed either but can make some observations:
1. The Lagoon has transverse forward berths which has led to the leading edge to the bridgedeck being more blunt, as well as further forward than on the Orana 44. While there is a central nacelle, nevertheless I would expect the Lagoon to slam more as a result of this. It does, however, lead to larger forward berths if that is important to you.
2. The Lagoon 420 is listed at close to 25,000 lbs dry weight, whereas the Orana 44 is at 9.8 tons; combined with what seem to be narrower hulls on the Orana and an S.A. for the Lagoon of only 809 sq. ft. versus 1180 on the Orana, I would expect the Orana to be quite a bit faster.
3. Some of the Fountaine Pajots of the era had a serious problem with osmotic blistering - I would want to ensure that this does not include the Orana of the vintage you are looking at.
4. The interior 'modules' of the FP are known to squeek quite a bit while underway. They are not structural, so that shouldn't effect much except your nerves. Still......
5. I could not find published figures for bridgedeck clearance for either boat, but the FP at least seems to be a bit higher from the photographs I have observed.

These are, of course, merely general observations. You would need to test both boats in varying conditions in order to determine what is best suited to your needs.

Brad

[jostalli]

Thanks, Brad. Those are excellent comments.

At some point you need to narrow your choices to a few boats and that is what we have done in the past 18 months of research and charters. After much discussion we finally decided to only focus on catamarans. Then we decided on a size that was acceptable as a liveaboard (It will be the wife and I plus our lab mix). We set our max budget of $300k and now wish to find the best value that ticks all the boxes. To us the Lagoon 420 and the Orana 44 represent the best value/deal in a 2008-2009 42-44ft range. The reason for the thread is to gauge people's opinion of what they would choose.

[smj]

Out of those two I would pick the FP if sailing performance is important. I'm not sure if its true but I've heard the Lagoon 420 is the slowest of the Lagoons. For livability, comfort and quality maybe a toss up?

[Camp Director G]

I never really could get used to the look of the Lagoons. FP's are more elegant looking (in my opinion) if that matters to you. Also, I just got back from a 3 week charter on a Broadblue 385. It was rather slow and didn't have much low-wind performance. After that trip, I think I'd be looking at the faster boat, just for the idea that you actually get to sail more rather than motoring everywhere. For me, that's a big difference. I've generally heard the Lagoons are tubby and slow, but comfy.

[yeloya]

Hi Jostalli,

I'd doubted if you can find Orana at $ K 300 unless she has serious issues. If you can, don't hesitate and go for it..
Osmosis is a common problem for these boats and make sure that she's either free of it or treated properly. Hull warranty is for 5 years and FP doesn't accept second hand boats..

Cheers

Yeloya

[jostalli]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Hi Jostalli,

I'd doubted if you can find Orana at $ K 300 unless she has serious issues. If you can, don't hesitate and go for it..
Osmosis is a common problem for these boats and make sure that she's either free of it or treated properly. Hull warranty is for 5 years and FP doesn't accept second hand boats..

Cheers

Yeloya

Yeloya, I have to say I'm very surprised at this comment from you. I know many of us look to you for advice and information on FP. So, according to you the following Orana 44's listed should have "serious issues":

2007 Fountaine Pajot Orana Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2008 Fountaine Pajot Orana 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2009 Fountaine Pajot Orana 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2008 Fountaine Pajot Orana Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[yeloya]

Hi Jostalli,

I might not have been clear enough;

-3 Orana out of 3 sold in Turkey have had osmosis treatment. 4 Lavezzi out of 4 is the same. The same applies to Cumberlands. That's why I said to be carefull. Mine also has the same problem and I will only sell it after the proper treatment and 5 years guarantee. I tell this to every potential buyer.

-The level of service that a boat can get out of a charter in the Caribbean would not be the best. (My humble guess..)

All what I am saying that if you get an Orana at around K $ 300 , in good shape, you should go for it..

Cheers

Yeloya

[CastingOFF]

Greetings Jostalli,

Long time mono-hull sailor and lurker here at CF, as you can see this is my first post. For the last two years I have been researching and examining cats, just been to the Annapolis boat show (where I was on a Orana ) and one week after that I was on a 2009 Lagoon 420. No one can tell you what is best for you because we all have different ideas on what is important for us. If you asked me to pick between those boats the Lagoon would be my choice. It has more storage, better live ability and from the several used boats I have been on seemed to be better built for long term wear and tear. The cons are that the Lagoon 420 is a super slow sailor, but from all of my research bridge deck slamming has not been an issue with delivery skippers or people who have chartered it in rough weather. It appears the chine that was designed into the hull does appear to mitigate the slamming.

As for me we are actually looking at a Lagoon 421, they redesigned the hard top bimini which creates a lot of aerodynamic drag and they redesigned the sugar scoops reducing drag in the water. From first hand sailors they say the Lagoon 421 gains between .5 and 1.5 knots on the 420. It's still a slow sailor but respectable. I think the bottom line is what is more important to you speed of sailing or live ability, to me it's livability and the 420/421 fit my ideals a bit better than the Orana, btw I did my fast sailing in SC52's and as I am looking to cruise the world slowly and enjoy life so I am not in a rush.

Just as an aside if I were to buy my dream boat in this category where money would be no option it would be the new FP Helia.

Good luck in your search and the bottom line is both are fine boats you just have to decide what is more important to you.

Cheers

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by jostalli

I am scheduling charters for both of these boats as I have yet to sail either but I'm asking for opinions on what you would choose to purchase: Lagoon 420 or Orana 44. We are talking 2008 or 2009 charter boats. They are priced almost exactly the same. I have walked all over two Lagoon 420's but have had a difficult time locating an Orana 44 to examine.

My determining factors will be: Live aboard comforts, quality craftsmanship, sailing "motion" (comfort).

The boat will be used for a loosely planned circumnavigation.

I have narrowed my choice to these two boats. The only other boat I would consider is the Lagoon 400.

I have an interest in these styles as well. I you haven't already, I suggest that you look at recent Leopards, as they've really come forward in the last couple of years, esp. in terms of interior layout and styling.

Also, the last time I saw the 40' I was taken back a little by it's size - much larger and more liveable than I expected. I believe these are selling brand new in your price range. A 44' with the newer design might also be a great choice, if you can find a 2-3 year model.... I'm not sure when the "new" design started, or how long your buying window is.

I haven't compared weight, storage, sailing characteristics, etc ... only interior styling and liveability.

[jostalli]

Originally Posted by ArtM

I have an interest in these styles as well. I you haven't already, I suggest that you look at recent Leopards, as they've really come forward in the last couple of years, esp. in terms of interior layout and styling.

Also, the last time I saw the 40' I was taken back a little by it's size - much larger and more liveable than I expected. I believe these are selling brand new in your price range. A 44' with the newer design might also be a great choice, if you can find a 2-3 year model.... I'm not sure when the "new" design started, or how long your buying window is.

I haven't compared weight, storage, sailing characteristics, etc ... only interior styling and liveability.

ArtM, you can't find many used new design Leopards. I dislike the old design. Speaking of Leopard, when was the last time a Leopard owner chimed in on this board? You never hear from Leopard owners. It seems like nobody is buying these boats.

I agree the Lagoon 400 is massive for a 40'. I have looked at the 440 and the 450. The new interior 440 is nice but the charter version has tiny heads, which is odd for a 44'. Also, the 2008 or 2009 are priced just a little too high for me.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by jostalli

ArtM, you can't find many used new design Leopards. I dislike the old design. Speaking of Leopard, when was the last time a Leopard owner chimed in on this board? You never hear from Leopard owners. It seems like nobody is buying these boats.

I agree the Lagoon 400 is massive for a 40'. I have looked at the 440 and the 450. The new interior 440 is nice but the charter version has tiny heads, which is odd for a 44'. Also, the 2008 or 2009 are priced just a little too high for me.

The market in these three boats has been largely driven by the charter businesses around the world. One of the largest, Moorings, has discontinued accepting Lagoons in favor of Leopards.

If your buying window is wide, I think you'll be seeing used Mooring boats with a year, and a proliferate number of them in 4 years.

I think we don't see many Leopard owners for these reasons:
1) Lagoon and FP designs were highly favored in past years
2) A smaller supply of boats in the used market
3) Fewer opportunities to see and sail Leopards by prospective buyers, resulting in even more sales to Lagoon and FP

The 40' Leopards are also spacious for their length. Take a look at the layouts to be sure, but I think the Leopard charter versions have fewer and larger heads. I think Lagoon was being a little silly putting four heads on a boat.