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Old 30-08-2015, 03:52   #16
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

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Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
But you multi sailors are teaching me stuff all the time. If I wre younger I might be considering one.
thats the beautyness of sailing, Cabo. When I was sail trainer and instructor in sailing schools, many "elder people" came for asking about how to start with sailing as they mentioned: Am I not too old (at the age of 40 or so) ???

Of course not... Sailing is "life time sport". Thats the real beautyness.

All the time and knowledge by learning you invest, is not lost by aging. Some sports where you need physical power only given by young age, you have to stop with 30... and find another sport replacing it. Not with sailing.

You always can swap from boat design to another... so you can adapt the sailing style to your own feelings. If you feel rusty, you can slow down, take a smaller boat to handle it well... hear this from many of the sailors in the age of 70... that they like to have a smaller boat.

And you can decide which region you like to sail, going high seas, heavy weather sailing, long distance, or you reduce it to coastal areas or even sailing on lakes....

Sailing is life time sport... we can enjoy it till high age... even for handicaped people we have solutions...e.g. some boats are equipped with lifts and cranes that wheel chair people can sail...





These photos are made on the 3 mast bark Lord Nelson, built in 1986 and owned by the NGO Jubilee Sailing Trust (JST) in U.K.

Lord Nelson has 8 cabins on board for Wheel chair people. Isnt that great ?
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Old 30-08-2015, 07:19   #17
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

Skip; the South Pacific fleet of Polynesian Vaka ( Waka in NZ) are already using electric motor drive. They are traditional design double canoes made of fibreglass and have a large solar panels across the stern with retractable electric motor drives inside the hulls towards the stern.

I guess if you remove some crew and add ballast in the form of batteries you aren't upsetting the boyancy of the ama too much except the crew usually sit to windward and with batteries they will be in each ama.
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Old 30-08-2015, 07:38   #18
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

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Skip; the South Pacific fleet of Polynesian Vaka ( Waka in NZ) are already using electric motor drive. They are traditional design double canoes made of fibreglass and have a large solar panels across the stern with retractable electric motor drives inside the hulls towards the stern.
Thats good news.... Do you have some photos or links ??

Yep, we have go to into that direction. It is very hypocratic by sailors and yacht owners to call their hobby "green + eco". Instead I see all the big diesel engine blocks presented on the boat exhebitions by companies like Volvo. They should push the thematic more heavily into the direction of Electric propulsion...

TESLA is showing how it goes... they are very successfully... and now starting to offer "house batteries" as backup system, so you can run the whole house electric with such a battery.

Tesla calls it "Powerwall"... Tesla Powerwall

So as the battery industries already can run sportive cars and a whole house delivering electricity, naturally we can think about to run boats completly on electric systems. Logically...

The prize of 3,500 US dollars for the Tesla Powerwall of 10 kw inclusive thermal management is OK, I would say...


We'd need to adapt the dimensions and size little bit to the needs of boat design :-) Actually its 6 inches x 3 ft. x 4 ft.

Source of picture: Tesla Battery Bottom Line: $3,500 for a 10-Kilowatt-Hour Storage System : Greentech Media
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Old 30-08-2015, 10:10   #19
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

before we start mixing this tread about "storage space in the amas" with other interesting topics completly, e.g. eco-friendly eco-propulsion or barrier free access to sailing, I wanna ask if I can copy such posts and open a new thread ??? Anybody here giving a short technical advice ?
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Old 30-08-2015, 10:57   #20
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

Both of those topics were done before. The electric propulsion has been done to death.
To answer your question, if you want to start new threads then do so.
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Old 30-08-2015, 12:13   #21
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

As someone else hinted at, once the amas are big enough to be usable, you really start eating into the tris advantages (performance) until you may as well jump to a cat.


Without going into full on race boats, for cruising, I think tris are good weekend cruising boats in the 20-28' range. You can retain most of the performance while still having enough accommodations for a weekend or an occasional week. Also at this size, folding systems are practical offering advantages of cheaper slips or towing the boat home. Cats in this size range have trouble providing accommodations without becoming little more than barges.


Above 28' you start to see a transition to where cat's can provide much better accommodations at the expense of performance (relative to a fast weekend tri) and the larger you go, the less the performance suffers.


This is born out if you look at production boats. Below 28' you will almost never see a cruising cat and above 35' there are pretty much no production tris.
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Old 30-08-2015, 13:13   #22
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

The basic rule of thumb is light and bulky storage in amas. As the entire structure needs to be designed to take the whole weight of the boat and its dynamic loads going through waves there is room for some experimenting. Skimming the main hull under full sail the full weight of the boat is pretty much carried by the ama while the rig pulls up on the windward side. What does change with weight in the amas is the motion of the boat. Adding weight slows lateral acceleration like a longer tightrope walking pole changing the roll moment of inertia. The boat will rise to beam waves with a slower motion which can increase the spray on deck and ama wave impacts. Nothing should be put in the ama bows or sterns so diagonal stability isn't compromised. Bows up is most critical, on my boat I keep things aft of the ama center and a good ways from the stern. I keep the weight under 200 pounds on my 37' tri carrying things like the docking gear, dinghy rig, garbage bags, recycling and a jerry can of gas. A tri should be loaded like an airplane keeping the weight centered, low and balanced from side to side. You will probably find moving things around for different conditions is helpful. A long chute run in a breeze may work better shifting the sail bags to the stern etc... Vessel loading is a dynamic art that should have some flexibility to deal with different conditions.
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Old 31-08-2015, 22:37   #23
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

Skip, I'm sorry I don't have any photos or links regarding the Vaka electric drives. The drive units are like small short torpedoes with props at the rear.
They were mounted outside the hulls and on the inboard side. They slid on a frame vertically down into the water and were retracted clear for sailing. As I remember there was a unit on each of the hulls, but I can't be sure. Im pretty sure it was Salthouse Yachts at Greenhithe Auckland New Zealand that was fitting them out.

If you google South Pacific Vaka fleet you should find something. Most of the main South Pacific nations are represented. NZ, Cook Islands, Fiji, Samoa etc.
I'm sorry I can't be more informative. I'm traveling across U.S. and at present in Utah, a long way from the ocean, and only have an iPad, phone and motel WiFi.
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Old 01-09-2015, 13:08   #24
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
This is born out if you look at production boats. Below 28' you will almost never see a cruising cat and above 35' there are pretty much no production tris.
I'd love to see more big cruising Trimarans from size of 50-60 feet upwards... rarely kind of "Hammerhead 54" are built which was designed by Chris White.




(Source: 2015 Latitude 38 Publishing, LLC - Latitude / LaDonna)

The dimensions of such a sportive and comfortable Tri with 124 m2 sail area windward are impressive:

Length overall:54' (16.45m)
Length waterline:52'3"
Beam overall:34'6" (10.51m)
Displacement:17,000 lbs
Draft: Centerboard2'6" to 9'0"
Sail area Mainsail:858 sq/ft (79.1 m2)
Sail area Jib:492 sq/ft (45.70 m2)
Sail area Staysail:250 sq/ft (23.22 m2)
Masthead clearance frm LWL:
64' (19.50m)



Pls visit external image gallery (the links are protected so I cannot post the images here) you get an idea how it looks under deck.

The space is what a long distance cruising sailor likes to have, isnt ? :-)
---
P.S.: The smaller sister of 34 foot length actually is for sales at 89 Thousand US dollars ... :-)






Beautiful boat as I like the double bed astern cabins of such 30 footers. No doubt for single or two handed the right size... :-)
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Old 01-09-2015, 13:32   #25
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

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Originally Posted by GrahamHO View Post
I'm sorry I can't be more informative....
No problems with.... the input you gave herewith will be enough that I can find some more details.

What I found on first quick search is that in 2011 started a fleet of five 60-foot boats left Auckland, New Zealand to set off on a year's voyage.


Amazing...



To complement tradition and bow to 21st century demands, the fleet has high-tech assists, such as auxiliary power in the form of twin submersible electric engines for each boat, powered by solar panels. The motor power, good for 5 knots for 8 hours per charge (Source: South Pacific Islanders Revive Sail Power with Traditional Fleet on Tour)

Eight large solar panels run these two 10kW electrical motors to help the crew with harbour manoevers (Source: Manukau Courier - Sailing the Pacific).



Nice Pacific voyage...




Plenty of space on deck...


Official website: Pacific Voyagers
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Old 01-09-2015, 13:38   #26
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
I'd love to see more big cruising Trimarans from size of 50-60 feet upwards... rarely kind of "Hammerhead 54" are built which was designed by Chris White.




(Source: 2015 Latitude 38 Publishing, LLC - Latitude / LaDonna)

The dimensions of such a sportive and comfortable Tri with 124 m2 sail area windward are impressive:

Length overall:54' (16.45m)
Length waterline:52'3"
Beam overall:34'6" (10.51m)
Displacement:17,000 lbs
Draft: Centerboard2'6" to 9'0"
Sail area Mainsail:858 sq/ft (79.1 m2)
Sail area Jib:492 sq/ft (45.70 m2)
Sail area Staysail:250 sq/ft (23.22 m2)
Masthead clearance frm LWL:64' (19.50m)



Pls visit external image gallery (the links are protected so I cannot post the images here) you get an idea how it looks under deck.

The space is what a long distance cruising sailor likes to have, isnt ? :-)
---
P.S.: The smaller sister of 34 foot length actually is for sales at 89 Thousand US dollars ... :-)






Beautiful boat as I like the double bed astern cabins of such 30 footers. No doubt for single or two handed the right size... :-)
Ironically I thought of his boat after I made my post and just hadn't gotten around to posting about it. I read his book when we first started looking at multihulls. While I'm sure it's a speed demon the pictures he had look pretty spartan inside. Nothing near as spacious as a similar large high performance catamran. This boat really isn't a cruising boat in my mind. Yes, you could cruise on it but certainly not a convient platform for cruising. It's made most if not all the compromises towards getting more speed.Island packet put out a trimaran some years back that took space in the amas to it's natural conclusion. Google packet cat and tell me that isn't a trimaran with lots of space in the amas.The polynesians figured this out a long time ago. If you look at thier small fishing boats, they are outrigger (basically a trimraran missing an ama) or trimarans. Their larger voyaging boats are Catamarans.
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:47   #27
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

The guy that owned Hecla stripped her out when he purchased it. That is one of the reasons it is so fast. He sold it and had an Atlantic 57 built also named Hekla but with a "K". I think he sold that one now. He used to post here.
The catamaran Hekla | Exploring the World by Sail from A to Z

There is also a 55' Chris White Juniper II tri for sale.
55' Chris White 1989 Juniper 2 Trimaran Boat For Sale
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:37   #28
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

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Ironically I thought of his boat after I made my post...


Ironically ??? No, no.... I would say it like this: We multihull lovers, and specifically Trimaran enthusiasts are a global community.... we have a common spirit (beside all of our individuality we like to express by the boats we love, buy, or rent.), which maybe even exist unconciously.

By time a sailor who knows both worlds, or let it say "three worlds" (monohulls, two-hull boats (e.g. Cats) + three-hull boats 8e.g. Tris) gets a feeling about by observing, by reading the lines (of a boat), by understanding the rig, the sail plan... and understands what the substance of a boat is feeling it under own feet or watching it how it moves through the waves. It is a global knowledge nowadays. Naturally I dont undrstand a Proa, as havent sailed one yet. So Polynesians proabably will have a more natural approach to these boats.

Mostly, as it is not possible in Western world to rent Trimarans for speedy cruising we have the urgency to buy one of these "racers" ;-). And as we love this kind of boat type I can imagine, that not easily an owner of a trimaran likes to sell it... as these boats are something very special (and rarely).

Maybe I should write an essay about the "behaviour or Trimaran Enthusiasts", as there is much, much more behind our decisions to be interested for these kind of boats, not just by curiousity. :-)

So I would say: it is more very natural, that you had a boat like the Hammerhead 54 in mind, too. :-)
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:24   #29
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

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The guy that owned Hecla stripped her out when he purchased it. That is one of the reasons it is so fast. He sold it and had an Atlantic 57 built also named Hekla but with a "K". I think he sold that one now. He used to post here.
The catamaran Hekla | Exploring the World by Sail from A to Z
Again sold ???? - Hm... sometimes I wonder about these kind of boat owners. It seems they make a lots of money, anyhow in any form beside their time consuming sailing passion. I don't know how they handle their damm*** expensive living.

The life of a "normal human" is far away from that, and billions of people fight daily for surviving. - Buying, building, selling boats like others do it with "used cars" (at low prizes of 5,000 dollars). I can't handle such guys, sorry to say.

The heck such boat owners have a company in the back (as owner) and enough time because letting others work for their own pleasure and fun and madness... or they made a patent which now brings them easily money in while they sleep as the patent is used by companies paying him licence fees.... or they got a big heritage from mum/dad to live this expensive restlessness... who knows. For me its kind of "ashaming" this form of luxurity. (Just my personal opinion).

I was consultant for strategic marketing to service marketing CEOs of big global brands... yes, its hard work, but you can earn easily 15-20,000 US dollars per months (and if you keep focused to build up a consulting company you even can earn 10,000 US dollars as daily consulting fee to make such kind of big concerns richer and richer.
So lots of money is coming in, so long you participate in the "big game" and follow the rules of endless "profit sinking".

But I quit that job because I got my "burn out" as a work-a-holic... with all that senselessness of endless growth and profit thinking... so I cant and dont want think about in that kind of "luxury dimensions". Llook at the galley floor of this Cat Hekla. Beautiful art work... but its "luxury" not really required on high seas.


I have to think (and like to think) in smaller dimensions to get a boat at the sales prize of some ten thousand bugs. As media producer I still can earn money higher than the average income but I cannot deal my life like a "Dagobert Duck". And still I feel in my situation its "kind of luxury" to dream about boats.

What I want say: I wonder about the endless "unhappyness" of these guys. Feels like that for me...

They continuously are looking for something better... never seem happy with what they have ????? Like eating endless on a long buffet not getting enough from the best caviar and salmon. - Do they never become happy with what they have ? Perfectionism in extrems is not healthy, isnt ?
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:25   #30
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Re: What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

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There is also a 55' Chris White Juniper II tri for sale.
55' Chris White 1989 Juniper 2 Trimaran Boat For Sale
I know this beauty.... a Ketch rigg is that what I love most, on a Trimaran or a monohull... cant explain it why. Her name is Juniper.



This outstanding boat was sailed round the globe over 3-4 years by extreme Dutch sailor, by Henk de Velde as his 6th circumnavigation. In Netherlands he is a living legend.

Henk came back with Juniper to Netherlands in 2011... so I think it is now waiting since very long to explore high seas under new ownership. Juniper would deserve it. Or did Henk sell it on 2011 and the following owner likes to sell her now again ?

I seriously would be interested to buy Juniper if it would be in the range of the sales prize I can afford :-) I suppose Henk must make money out of it to finance the next crazy sailing project :-)

He just announced to speak during the Amsterdam Inwater Boat show HISWA 2016 about his new Route du Rhum 2018 project...

I suppose he is working on an "elder racing Catamaran" to bring it into new shape... as seen actually on his website.


Remembers me little bit the Catamaran Alisun J&B which was sailed by Henk in 1989...


Henk knows perfectly how to create a kind of mystic aura around himself. Great showmaster... :-).
He will launch his motorboat Solitario during the coming HISWA Inwater Boat show I suppose (date is 16th-20th March 2016). Henk is a guy with "many faces", always good for surprises. :-)
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