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Old 17-04-2008, 23:22   #46
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Red face Hi, SailrJim

Hi, SailrJim - I'd go with a bigger boat to get a decent payload-42 feet long, say. That is more interior / empty space than you want, but it won't be more payload than you want. Easy to get on and off means, to me, stairs in the stern, and that doesn't go well with tillers, but it is possible. Make sure you have decent clearance for the bridgedeck, and since you are (if you take my advice,) getting a bigger boat that your interior preference requires, avoid berth 'shelves,' which lower your bridge deck clearance. Buy Kanter's 'Cruising Catamaran Communique,' and believe what he says.
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Old 17-04-2008, 23:33   #47
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Ps. Lifting props don't go with either cheap or simple, unless on an outboard engine. 1250 hours doesn't sound long enough. Derek Kelsall specializes in home builders, and he gives estimates of building time. I would think a Richard Woods or Mike Waller designed plywood boat might fit your description.
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Old 18-04-2008, 00:50   #48
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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Northerncat, what you say is true if it relates to a used boat for sale (as he is in the brokerage biz), or to commercial advertisements. Otherwise, no problems. Certainly there seems to be a great exchange of ideas on construction of various mulithulls by various designers plus photos and, if you want to refer to a website for a specific product/suppier, you can always email direct.

Brad
actually it seems to apply to any link posted i tried to post a make your own foiler link a monthback and got a shirty email back about posting links
i also meant to put in a plug for the bloke who designed my beautiful boat peter snell its called an easy and he designs ranging from 33ft -42ft, i can post his website details if interested,m theyre pretty easy and quick to put together with materials that can be sourced from anywhere


sean
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Old 18-04-2008, 01:57   #49
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Originally Posted by sailrjim View Post

must be able to afford to maintain as well as build; must be a catamaran
  • modest budget (low by some standards)
  • open ocean capable
  • good speed, but more interested in overall performance, especially light air
  • must handle well, easy to tack, responsive
  • motion in sea way as comfortable as the length allows
  • two on board, travelling with light to moderate load; light on the tools, spares and tinned food.
  • modest fitout with some possible upgrades in future such as watermaker; reduce water tankage accordingly, mostly manual equipment - winches, windlass, etc.
  • standing headroom throughout.
  • insulated against all climates, but not in the extreme. Must avoid condensation.
  • design for minimal chance of slamming in seas.
  • rig to be common, simple to make and maintain, good in light or strong winds.
  • user friendly way to embark/disembark.
  • must be capable windward sailing vessel with practical narrow tacking angle
  • two double berths, galley, private toilet, lounge/saloon,
  • I want to carry as much all chain rode as practical.
  • Would like a small diesel with lifting prop(s) but will settle for outboarder
  • tiller steering for simplicity; and I like it.
  • maximum ten electric lamps in the vessel accommodation.
  • user friendly all round boat to be maintained by me.
  • prefer to put money and time into quality rather than quantity/size/lenght
  • build from start to launch in two years; full time effort at roughly 1250 hrs/year solo with option to hire occasional assistance.
Quite an impressive list of wants.
2,500 hours seems low, even the ply builders seem to run a lot more.
Derrick Kelsall's KISS vacumed panels seem to be a quick way to build.
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - Boat Designs
Low cost dictates minimum or cheap materials. For the minimum material route combined with the KISS panels check out Harryproa Home Page
If I was intending a craft for only 2 full time I would have gone with the Proa.

Mike
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Old 18-04-2008, 03:06   #50
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cmon mike 2500 hours is a finished easy, just cause you've got a 3500 hr boat although your progress is impressive
sean
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Old 18-04-2008, 08:57   #51
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Originally Posted by Whimsical View Post
Quite an impressive list of wants.
2,500 hours seems low, even the ply builders seem to run a lot more.
Derrick Kelsall's KISS vacumed panels seem to be a quick way to build.
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - Boat Designs
Low cost dictates minimum or cheap materials. For the minimum material route combined with the KISS panels check out Harryproa Home Page
If I was intending a craft for only 2 full time I would have gone with the Proa.

Mike
Well, 2500 hours may be low, but I intend to monitor my progress closely. Good planning and the use of precut panels for vessel and frames/molds should improve the odds for my time frame.

I have studied the Kelsall method, however, I have not favored the designs. Not certain why, but I think it has to do with the proportion of hull height to deck cabin height. I think that hulls with higher freeboard, especially amidship, offer greater resistance to capsize when center of bouyancy shifts. I know that the trade off is that a high profile can cause problems going to windward or in tacking. I think that is why some designs have reduced height in the bows, ala the Woods Eclipse, and some of the Horstman designs.

The flat panels made on table method can be used for many designs, and is mentioned by several designers including Kurt Hughes in addition to Woods.

I have looked at the Harry Proa designs. The concept is innovative. However, I think it needs much more proving in the open North Atlantic. I am not convinced that shunting is better than tacking, especially in ten to twelve foot seas. I forgot to include in my list that I prefer the "dive in" as opposed to the "crawl over" style of double berth. Also, separate hulls provide a bit more privacy for guests. Finally, that design relies on the exotic spars. I intend to shop the second hand market aggressively for my spars. This has greatest chance of success if I use a more conventional style of rig. I have no need to press the technological envelope here.

Finally, Tim suggests a larger vessel in the range of 42 feet. I have looked at a Kurt Hughes 42 ft design, but it is an open bridge deck style and I do not favor the interior of such designs. Besides, more boat = more money and more time unless purchasing technology ala the Oram method which draws more money. Certainly, I would like to have a 42 footer, but I must be able to handle it, build it quickly, and afford to maintain it.

BTW, I like the Easy designs as well, but I think the Lavranos Proteus is similar and simpler to build, while being better at carrying a cruising load (fineness ratio = 9) though perhaps slower than the Easys (fineness ratio = 11).

All your feedback and participation is appreciated.
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Old 18-04-2008, 09:27   #52
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Originally Posted by Pura Vida View Post
My question to the group is, what designs and designers are popular with builders? Frankly I'm not married to a cat or a tri at this point but I am leaning toward a tri. My boat experience is in ply/epoxy as well as GRP food vessels.
Have you also considered finishing off a project boat?
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Old 18-04-2008, 14:24   #53
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Originally Posted by sailrjim View Post
Hi Tim,

I have previously perused your site. Interesting.

My idea:
  • must be able to afford to maintain as well as build; must be a catamaran
  • modest budget (low by some standards)
  • open ocean capable
  • good speed, but more interested in overall performance, especially light air
  • must handle well, easy to tack, responsive
  • motion in sea way as comfortable as the length allows
  • two on board, travelling with light to moderate load; light on the tools, spares and tinned food.
  • modest fitout with some possible upgrades in future such as watermaker; reduce water tankage accordingly, mostly manual equipment - winches, windlass, etc.
  • standing headroom throughout.
  • insulated against all climates, but not in the extreme. Must avoid condensation.
  • design for minimal chance of slamming in seas.
  • rig to be common, simple to make and maintain, good in light or strong winds.
  • user friendly way to embark/disembark.
  • must be capable windward sailing vessel with practical narrow tacking angle
  • two double berths, galley, private toilet, lounge/saloon,
  • I want to carry as much all chain rode as practical.
  • Would like a small diesel with lifting prop(s) but will settle for outboarder
  • tiller steering for simplicity; and I like it.
  • maximum ten electric lamps in the vessel accommodation.
  • user friendly all round boat to be maintained by me.
  • prefer to put money and time into quality rather than quantity/size/lenght
  • build from start to launch in two years; full time effort at roughly 1250 hrs/year solo with option to hire occasional assistance.
I do not want a vessel in which I have so much money and time invested that if I lost it I would be devastated. Liability (only) insurance is much easier to obtain for a small crew and is more affordable too. Sometimes, I will sail solo as I have in the past. I have found it nearly impossible to get full coverage for a solo ocean voyage.

Whew! So, from my reading, I am led to catamarans in the vicinity of 30 feet LWL/35 ft LOA, built in ply/GRP utilising kit cut panels for most of the vessel. Even if I determine that I could build in foam core, I would still use a precut panel kit.
An Oram Mango would fit most of those requirements. I know from having sailed on one, they perform very well.

Bob also has a new 40' design which isn't on his website. It has more displacement/payload ability than the Mango. PM me if you would like Bob's contact details.

The number of hours to finish the boat really depend on the standard of finish you are after. There are also some pretty clever paint systems you can use inside, which will dramatically cut the fairing work there.
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Old 18-04-2008, 18:09   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
The number of hours to finish the boat really depend on the standard of finish you are after. There are also some pretty clever paint systems you can use inside, which will dramatically cut the fairing work there.
More info please

Mike
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Old 18-04-2008, 19:47   #55
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There are also some pretty clever paint systems you can use inside, which will dramatically cut the fairing work there
Ditto!

Mike
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Old 18-04-2008, 20:02   #56
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Zolatone 20-Series Automotive, Industrial, and Marine Coatings is kind of 'industrial' looking. You can also use regular paint with a texture imparting roller.

In my build, there will be less problem than in many, because I am vacuum bagging on a flat table, with uni fabric, so it should be a pretty fair surface to begin with.
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Old 18-04-2008, 20:33   #57
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Build order...

Having built two boats and currently fitting out another I would suggest that most (80%+) of the time goes into the deck and the interior.

If a boat is built right way up then my feeling is that inside should be done first (ie erect the bulkheads, build the interior), deck second and hull last. Upside down build the deck first, interior second and hull last. Hatches, rudders and similar can be made away from the boat and the hull or deck fitted to them.

At the very least the bulkheads should have all battens and mounting points before erection, and most of the interior joinery could be done before planking or glassing. Even if the interior was built in place, removed and then put back it would be easier with a better finish.

The headliner is a very tricky item to install once the deck is in place.

In particular the cabin sole (even if it is a temporary one) must be there before the interior can be worked on.

The other time and energy saver is to have a dry protected workspace with a work platform at the right height (it could be made variable) beside the boat.

Most of the time spent building a boat is working in a very confined spaced at awkward angles with most tools not being to hand.

When a boat is built in a conventional manner it is possible to "sketch" out the form quickly. The ease is deceptive as many hours of difficult work lie ahead.

I would expect a 38'cat/42' mono to take from 4,000 (minimal fit and finish) to 12,000 hours (superlative fit and finish).
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Old 18-04-2008, 20:37   #58
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You can figure 20% for hull deck build and up to 40% for interior finish........building the hull is the easy part.

Spars, rigging. sails, winches, blocks, track, travlers, hatches, sails, engines, pumps, cushions, stove, electrical, batteries, chargers, anchors, windlass, canvas, propane, ap, instruments, sinks, toilets,,,, the list is endless.

Building a boat is a very big deal. Any one that does it: congrats! you have lots of fortitude. Me, can't imagine ever wanting to do that when there are so many good used boats on the market.

Joli
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Old 18-04-2008, 21:02   #59
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Spatter paint that isn't flammabile-

I am concerned that Zolatone spatter paint may be flammable, after reading what it is made of and seeing that they very pointedly did not provide flame spread ratings on their specifications sheet.

Multispec is Class A for flame spread, meaning very safe from a fire point of view. See: Multicolor Specialties, Inc.
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Old 19-04-2008, 03:36   #60
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Well,
I have looked at the Harry Proa designs. The concept is innovative. However, I think it needs much more proving in the open North Atlantic. I am not convinced that shunting is better than tacking, especially in ten to twelve foot seas. I forgot to include in my list that I prefer the "dive in" as opposed to the "crawl over" style of double berth. Also, separate hulls provide a bit more privacy for guests. Finally, that design relies on the exotic spars. I intend to shop the second hand market aggressively for my spars. This has greatest chance of success if I use a more conventional style of rig. I have no need to press the technological envelope here.

Certainly, I would like to have a 42 footer, but I must be able to handle it, build it quickly, and afford to maintain it.
G'day,
Fair point about the North Atlantic, but I am not sure what will be proved. The boats see the same type of loads (though smaller and fewer of them) as a catamaran and are engineered accordingly. In a gale, they are safer than any similar weight cat.

Tacking in big seas involves pointing directly into the seas, with a very high chance of getting in irons and surfing backwards onto your rudders. Gybing in big seas is terrifying. Shunting is no different to slow reaching, and there is no chance of getting into irons, no headsails to tame, no travellers or winches to catch fingers and bodies, no waves to surf down. Once you have shunted, especially in big seas, you will wonder why anyone tacks or gybes.

A second hand stayed alloy rigs will almost certainly end in misery. An unstayed carbon mast is lighter, cheaper (than new) and can be put up and forgotten about. This compares with daily inspection and regular replacement of all the components of a stayed mast. Build it yourself and carbon becomes a very cheap option. Take the weight of the alloy tube in kgs (1 kg=2.2 pounds) and multiply it by $27 to get a ball park materials price. A 35' cat might have an 80 kg/176lb alloy stick. Build it in carbon for a little over $2,000, plus plans. Make it a stayed mast and the materials cost goes down by about 40% but you have to buy, maintain and worry about all the bits to hold it up.

Dive in bunks are easy enough. Privacy we don't do so well, unless you put the guests in the lee hull, although on a 35' cat you aren't going to get a whole lot anyway.

Some of your other points as they apply to harrys:

modest budget (low by some standards)
A harry is about half the weight of a comparable accommodation cat. This is half the work and half the cost.
  • open ocean capable
  • More well found boats come to grief on coastal voyages than in the ocean, as the seas are steeper, currents are more pronounced, winds more erratic and there are more things to hit. Ocean capable is easy. Coastal capable is much more of a challenge.
  • good speed, but more interested in overall performance, especially light air
  • Light weight and low windage is fast.
  • must handle well, easy to tack, responsive
  • A bow and a stern rudder are by far the most responsive combination.
  • motion in sea way as comfortable as the length allows
  • Zero rocker and weight concentrated in the middle of the boat.
  • design for minimal chance of slamming in seas.
  • The lee half of the bridgedeck is trampoline, nothing to slam.
  • rig to be common, simple to make and maintain, good in light or strong winds.
  • This is not a good description of an alloy mast with headsail and diamonds.
  • user friendly way to embark/disembark.
  • Gangplank off the bow for med mooring, fold away steps up the side for marina berthing and a fold down ramp off the beams for dinghy and swimming. Far better than being caught under the stern in a chop.
  • must be capable windward sailing vessel with practical narrow tacking angle
  • Minimise windage
  • I want to carry as much all chain rode as practical.
  • Whatever for? A kellet will do a better job at much less weight and less damage to the coral.
  • tiller steering for simplicity; and I like it.
  • Me too.
  • user friendly all round boat to be maintained by me.
  • Think about this while you are building it.
  • prefer to put money and time into quality rather than quantity/size/lenghth
  • Build a harry and do both. Long cheap lee hull, just enough room in the windward hull.
  • build from start to launch in two years; full time effort at roughly 1250 hrs/year solo with option to hire occasional assistance.
  • With ease. I built a rough strip planked 35'ter in 450 hours. I am now working on a flat panel technique which will make this look slow.
Regards,

Rob
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