What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

[D&D]

[QUOTE=Barra;1320681]

Originally Posted by D&D

[*]they are very good sailing vessels. Lagoon are too often (and wrongly, in our view) criticized as 'slow', but we tend to average ~7kn passage-making and often cruise in the 10-15kn range when conditions suit. They sail well in light air too -- In fact, that became our only 'performance' priority in our final list of compromise preferences -- and we only rarely call upon our engines. We burned 1400L of fuel sailing from Italy to Sydney (just <14,000nm) and a lot of that was maneuvering around marinas. Our top speed was >21kn, on 3 occasions, but that's not something we recommend or want to repeat!
/QUOTE]

Hi read this quote with some surprise. What conditions does a 440 cruise at 15 knots? I mean that's up there in the realms of gunboats and 300 mile plus days...

There seems to be some misunderstanding. There is, with respect, a difference between "cruise in the 10-15kn range" (our words) and "cruise at 15 knots". We certainly did not intend (nor, we think, can we be read to suggest) we achieve "300 mile plus days", although we certainly have achieved >200 mile days. As we said originally (fairly clearly, we thought) "we tend to average ~7kn passage-making".

We regret any misunderstanding.

[Barra]

Maybe there is a misunderstanding. Cruise in a range to me at least means to maintain those speeds in that range on average so as i read it you have maintained 15 knots in the right conditions ( 10 knots in others) and im wondering what those conditions are.

Unless ive misunderstood you and you mean you have maintained 10 knots and do the odd surf to 15? Massive difference but either way i would genuinely still like to know what conditions are needed as 10 knots maintained is still pretty interesting though not as surprising.

The light wind performance is also pretty interesting given it was one of your priorities as you say so on the surface a heavy cat would be an odd choice. I guess you mean downwind only and if so can you fill me in on what kind of cruising speeds you can maintain in light airs as thats a priority for me too.

Thanks

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Barra

Maybe there is a misunderstanding. Cruise in a range to me at least means to maintain those speeds in that range on average so as i read it you have maintained 15 knots in the right conditions ( 10 knots in others) and im wondering what those conditions are.

Unless ive misunderstood you and you mean you have maintained 10 knots and do the odd surf to 15? Massive difference but either way i would genuinely still like to know what conditions are needed as 10 knots maintained is still pretty interesting though not as surprising.

The light wind performance is also pretty interesting given it was one of your priorities as you say so on the surface a heavy cat would be an odd choice. I guess you mean downwind only and if so can you fill me in on what kind of cruising speeds you can maintain in light airs as thats a priority for me too.

Thanks

We will maintain 10kn (or thereabouts, say 8-11 kn) with 25kn on or aft the beam and relatively flat seas. Higher winds will achieve about the same as, inevitably, the higher winds will increase the wave heights...and of all the factors influencing our speed, wave height is a big one. As you suggest, following seas and surfing conditions can produce very high 'surfing' speeds, including for us well above 15kn...and >21kn on 3 occasions, which occasions we hope never to repeat!

In light air (and again assuming relatively flat seas) we will maintain 5 kn in 9 kn of wind on or aft the beam. We fully understood ours is not a light vessel and such speeds may not be acceptable to 'performance' sailors. For us, however, 'performance' is about moving reasonably during blue water passages (holding >4 kn) without calling on an engine.

[Barra]

25 knots on the beam and relatively flat seas. Yes they are the good days indeed!

Shame there arent more of them.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Barra

25 knots on the beam and relatively flat seas. Yes they are the good days indeed!

Shame there arent more of them.

Indeed, altho whether those are the exclusive conditions for such vessel speeds on our 440 is far from certain. We admit to feeling a bit pressed by your enquiries...so we erred on the cautious side. That said, we admit as well that >200 mile days are not common, but neither are they rare...and thus it's probably the case that some combinations(s) of less sweet conditions also produced 10 kns.

We're not racers (or, more accurately, the Captain's a retired racer!) and we don't 'tune' when there's another vessel on a parallel course. Guesstimating again, we'd say we overtake about as often as we are overtaken...and downwind conditions definitely suit the 440.

Comfortable in any conditions though!

[Barra]

No worries didnt mean to press but on your original numbers you were busting Newicks (?) 3 way trade off on comfort speed and price which sparked my interest as i had heard 440 s sailed better than other lagoons pound for pound so to speak. Sadly for us all the rule remains intact at least for now.

Maybe if one of the charter companies would put in a bulk order for 200 odd 5X's then in a few years time the dream could become reality.

[REsCat]

Some rules are just not meant to be broken, and 200+ days are ALWAYS a bonus.

Bob

[D&D]

Originally Posted by REsCat

Some rules are just not meant to be broken, and 200+ days are ALWAYS a bonus.

Bob

We agree with that...

The L440 is definitely not built as a racing vessel, but we test sailed a LOT of other cats and the L440 was amoung the better performers.

Sea state is a major factor, as it was on every cat we sailed, with a lot of wetted area and not a lot of punching power through waves.

Point of sail varies a lot too. The Seawind 1250 and a Grainger and a Schionning were the best into the wind of those we tested. The L440 was amoung the best downwind...and, let's be honest here, who doesn't select downwind with any selection opportunity? As a dear friend with hundreds of thousands of sea miles likes to say "Nothing goes to windward like a 747!" Racers tend to focus on windward performance, but quick downwind is important too as, given any choice, that's where we'll be!

In any event and as a cruiser, our L440's ~7kn passage-making average is very respectable indeed.

[Barra]

Im not a racer but a cruiser who likes to sail ( much like yourselves)
. My takes a little different though in that theres very little difference in downwind performance between boats. Its mainly just a function of sail area so lagoons with lots of standard sail area would do pretty well downwind in a stock standard comparison. But you can easily add downwind sail area to any boat.

Reaching and upwind are different though and much harder to get right so thats why you focus on upwind performance - its the only significant point of difference.

And in all honesty i would much prefer a reach to a downwind sail but maybe thats a function of the different boats we have in part.

Yours suits you and your sailing which is great but there are plenty of us performance cruisers out there too that like a bit of a sail other than downwind.

We have been doing alot of motoring here in ionion side of greece and just a few days ago being able to do 50 miles under sail in under 10 knots of wind was a real sanity saver i can tell you!

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Barra

My takes a little different...there are plenty of us performance cruisers out there too that like a bit of a sail other than downwind.

We have been doing alot of motoring here in ionion side of greece and just a few days ago being able to do 50 miles under sail in under 10 knots of wind was a real sanity saver i can tell you!

It's great you like your boat...and we perhaps
misunderstood your earlier posts to suggest otherwise, leaving us with the (obviously mistaken) impression that you were actually interested in (as in considering) a Lagoon for yourself. Hence we wanted to err on the cautious side in our remarks about perfromance. It now appears that perhaps you wanted to confirm your boat had better performance? ...and no doubt it does.

We're probably not performance cruisers, as you use that term, but we also enjoy a bit of sail other than downwind. We have also certainly sailed 50 miles in under 10 knots of wind; that's 9-10 hours (8-9hrs if the wind suited the screecher...or 10-11hrs if the wind is on the nose) for us (and probably a lot less for you?) and we'd enjoy the whole trip as an opportunity to relax with easy pace and full sails up. When we're not cruising, we do the 55nm back and forth between Yamba and Coffs Harbour regularly as a day-sail and rarely trouble the engines, irrespective of the often light breeze in the area.

Each to their own eh?

[Barra]

Originally Posted by D&D

It's great you like your boat...and we perhaps
misunderstood your earlier posts to suggest otherwise, leaving us with the (obviously mistaken) impression that you were actually interested in (as in considering) a Lagoon for yourself. Hence we wanted to err on the cautious side in our remarks about perfromance. It now appears that perhaps you wanted to confirm your boat had better performance? ...and no doubt it does.

We're probably not performance cruisers, as you use that term, but we also enjoy a bit of sail other than downwind. We have also certainly sailed 50 miles in under 10 knots of wind; that's 9-10 hours (8-9hrs if the wind suited the screecher...or 10-11hrs if the wind is on the nose) for us (and probably a lot less for you?) and we'd enjoy the whole trip as an opportunity to relax with easy pace and full sails up. When we're not cruising, we do the 55nm back and forth between Yamba and Coffs Harbour regularly as a day-sail and rarely trouble the engines, irrespective of the often light breeze in the area.

Each to their own eh?

Not actually too sure where your confusion and touchiness has come from but you've got the wrong end of the sausage mate!

I just wanted to better understand your claims that you "often cruise in the 10 -15 knot range". You corrected that to 8 to 11 knots in ideal conditions which wasnt nearly as surprising.

Yes i would consider a 440 for my next boat and wanted to confirm if they really did sail that well hence the posts.

The fact of the matter is I dont know alot about the real world sailing performance of the midrange lagoons as the ones I come across here are usually charter boats and they are motoring. You sail yours and had some performance numbers that I could ask about. Didn't realize it would be such a touchy subject but you did put them out there and I appreciate your honesty.

Thats really all this is about. Not trying to prove anything about my boat vs yours as you suggest. Of course mine sails better, thats what its designed to do.(But it doesnt have the accommodations that the equivalent 420 does - what its designed to do - its all trade offs). 50 mile sail was just an aside from 2 days ago not some sort of performance claim (I could do much better than that but thats not the point of this post).

Only other point I have made was to respond that not everyone prefers to sail downwind as you claimed to justify your choice. ie each to their own as you say eh?


cheers and happy sailing

barra

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Barra

Not actually too sure where your confusion and touchiness has come from but you've got the wrong end of the sausage mate!

I just wanted to better understand your claims that you "often cruise in the 10 -15 knot range". You corrected that to 8 to 11 knots in ideal conditions which wasnt nearly as surprising.

Yes i would consider a 440 for my next boat and wanted to confirm if they really did sail that well hence the posts.

The fact of the matter is I dont know alot about the real world sailing performance of the midrange lagoons as the ones I come across here are usually charter boats and they are motoring. You sail yours and had some performance numbers that I could ask about. Didn't realize it would be such a touchy subject but you did put them out there and I appreciate your honesty.

Thats really all this is about. Not trying to prove anything about my boat vs yours as you suggest. Of course mine sails better, thats what its designed to do.(But it doesnt have the accommodations that the equivalent 420 does - what its designed to do - its all trade offs). 50 mile sail was just an aside from 2 days ago not some sort of performance claim (I could do much better than that but thats not the point of this post).

Only other point I have made was to respond that not everyone prefers to sail downwind as you claimed to justify your choice. ie each to their own as you say eh?


cheers and happy sailing

barra

Sounds like misunderstandings all 'round, including our earlier post that you feel is now "corrected" and our mentioning downwind performance "to justify" our choice of the L440.

We very much regret our contribution to the misunderstanding(s).

Cheers and happy sailing to you also!

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by ArtifexStonemas

Hello Sailors,



My budget is $300 000

Thank you for taking the time to read and any time you take to answer my question through sharing your experience. And yes I will crew to get my own too .

Originally Posted by D&D

All pretty fair comments here so far. There is certainly lots of choice...and every vessel involves some compromises.



For a short(er) answer to the OP, our experience would suggest he/she at least consider a Lagoon 440.

I can't find anything but an older ex-charter one (or three) for under 350,000 US.

I am thinking Lagoon myself too having a few specific needs. And some wants. I am trying to wrap my head around sailing in the rain, up there, alone (as I assure you I will be). My last boat, a Gemini, I could sail from under the hard bimini, dry, at least from the waist up.

Seems the only ones in the 300k arena are the 380 and 400/410. Unless quite old.

Do you know about the differences between the 420s? Are they the poorest sailors of the lot like I seem to remember hearing?

Thanks.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I can't find anything but an older ex-charter one (or three) for under 350,000 US.

Fair enuf. We're not actually looking at the moment so we're out of touch, but anecdotal observations seem to suggest the market is still 'soft', i.e. a buyers' market...and there are a lot of L440's out there. So make-a-ridiculous-offer (subject to survey and sea trials, of course) still sounds like a reasonable stragety, irrespective of an asking price apparently above your range?

Originally Posted by Therapy

I am thinking Lagoon myself too having a few specific needs. And some wants. I am trying to wrap my head around sailing in the rain, up there, alone (as I assure you I will be). My last boat, a Gemini, I could sail from under the hard bimini, dry, at least from the waist up.

We tend to do most of our passage-making on autopilot, with a remote that allows us to stay dry in the saloon...most of the time. When we must be on the flybridge in foul weather, it's time for the wet weather gear. There's a (factory standard) bimini & dodger up there, but we tend to use it more as a sun shade than a weather shade. That said, we know of at least one 440 with a substantial hardtop with surrounding clears over and around the flybridge.

Originally Posted by Therapy

Do you know about the differences between the 420s? Are they the poorest sailors of the lot like I seem to remember hearing?

We can't really comment on the 420 as we never sailed on one. There are, however, plenty of posts around by 420 owners.

Good luck with your search.

[barnakiel]

Hitting one or more 200 Nm days on a longer passage would not surprise me - if you keep the boat light, press her some and you come from the racing crowd. (This is hardly the case of a typical mom&pop crew though.)

Otherwise, last year we timed a couple of lagoons of this size and they averaged some 140 Nm a day over a long downwind voyage.

One can sail faster, but when the destination is downwind/upwind your VMG suffers. Sailing dead downwind they seemed to hit the wall somewhere between 7 and 8 knots.

I am not sure why so many would be sailors get fixated on illusory, magic 200 Nm days. They are pretty unattainable to most crew/boat combos. I think a 140 Nm day average is great anyways and if we think of the comfort on the passage then most cats win against most monos, hands down.

There is a brand new one here (possibly a 440) and she is downright ugly. Strange, as there is a 380 five docks away and she is so pretty.

People! Sail pretty boats!!!

b.