What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

[D&D]

Originally Posted by dennisail

Anything remotely performance oriented will not be sailing directly downwind and will have the wind forward of the beam just by going away from the the wind by 35deg or so in light winds.

Altering from a DDW rhumb line by "35deg or so" to bring apparent wind forward of the beam requires quite a reasonable SOG difference to keep the same or similar VMG; that may be a big ask if the downwind SOG is already pressing hull speed. Then add in the potentially negative impact of sea state -- Presumably there's a reasonable chance of following seas when running downwind -- and the 'performance' ask is even bigger.

We suspect even performance oriented vessels will be found sailing DDW (or very nearly) when circumstances suggest that is appropriate...and we know some serious racers who enjoy (and perhaps even seek out when cruising!) a leisurely DDW wind sail!

Originally Posted by dennisail

Even the barge like cats I have seen cruising will not sail DDW, however I doubt they can bring the wind forward.

Hard to comment on that until it's made a bit clearer what exactly might be "barge like". Perhaps some examples of the "barge like cats...seen cruising"...?

[Lagoon4us]

There's nothing, simply nothing like popping two genoas on the same foil, run the sheets outside the side stays ie in the spinnaker blocks, pull mainsheet tension on with both halyard and topping lift (no main) connected to end of boom and sailing up to 10 deg either side of DDW.

The autopilot goes on holiday! Viva la 'wing-a-wing'.....

But what would i know? Cheers

[D&D]

Originally Posted by D&D

if the downwind SOG is already pressing hull speed.

Oops...we perhaps didn't read enough into dennisail's "in light winds" qualifier. Unlikely to be pressing hull speeds in light winds. Apologies for missing that...

There'd still be a reasonable VMG issue though...and it'd still be interesting to know what constitutes a "barge like cat"...

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

There's nothing, simply nothing like popping two genoas on the same foil, run the sheets outside the side stays ie in the spinnaker blocks, pull mainsheet tension on with both halyard and topping lift (no main) connected to end of boom and sailing up to 10 deg either side of DDW.

The autopilot goes on holiday! Viva la 'wing-a-wing'.....

But what would i know? Cheers

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

There's nothing, simply nothing like popping two genoas on the same foil, run the sheets outside the side stays ie in the spinnaker blocks, pull mainsheet tension on with both halyard and topping lift (no main) connected to end of boom and sailing up to 10 deg either side of DDW.

The autopilot goes on holiday! Viva la 'wing-a-wing'.....

But what would i know? Cheers

I forgot to add, If the wind increases or you need to reduce sail/sailing is finished simply tack and furl, the two sails furl nicely...

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

I forgot to add, If the wind increases or you need to reduce sail/sailing is finished simply tack and furl, the two sails furl nicely...

Agree completely. We sailed 10s of thousands of miles with that configuration. Not very fast in light winds but who cares when you are cruising. Also used it with true winds in excess of 40 knots without any drama. We didn't even carry a spinnaker or any other type of downwind specific sail.

[dennisail]

Originally Posted by D&D

Oops...we perhaps didn't read enough into dennisail's "in light winds" qualifier. Unlikely to be pressing hull speeds in light winds. Apologies for missing that...

There'd still be a reasonable VMG issue though...and it'd still be interesting to know what constitutes a "barge like cat"...

You are the one with the fantastic claim that your lagoon will be as fast as a Schionning down wind, despite its power to weight being 4 times worse off. Add the fact that the lagoons hulls are fat enough that hull speed will be an issue, and the Schionning is light and narrow enough that hull speed would almost be irrelevant.

Please explain at which wind speeds and downwind sailing angles your claim applies (I assumed ALL since you did not specify this in your claim). Then explain why the lagoon will not be severely disadvantaged despite its fat hulls and massive power to weight deficit. I honestly can not understand this claim. Obviously choosing a speed where the sea state dictates speed is not a relevant condition!

Here is a little anecdote for you. Not sure that it proves anything but its a story anyway

I recall sailing from Fakarava to Anse Amyot in Toau. We left slightly before a lagoon 440 and the wind was fresh. So we just unrolled our custom small genoa (which is tiny compared to our main, frac rigged). The wind preceded to die and the trip was DDW. We were feeling lazy and could not be bothered raising our main, and our code zero was packed away. No probs we were going to make it anyway so we sailed DDW with the small genny making some seriously slow speed.

The L440 was under full sail, and by their direction we thought they must have been going somewhere else but it soon became apparent they were gybing their way across the wind to get to the same place we were. We must have been averaging 3-4K DDW. The L440 with full sail and us with about 30% of our sail ended up getting there in similar time. They did gain on us though. They must have been doing a much faster SOG though with their longer course.

They were a nice French couple. We caught what was about a 40kg yellow fin Tuna and we gave them some. They invited us over for dinner and I must say their L440 was an amazingly comfortable boat to be on at anchor. Almost like living at home! I can see why they are so popular. But you have to be kidding yourself if you think that they would have not flown past us if they were on a 1320X on this same course.

Why do I care? Well I would like a performance orientated cat like a 1320X which I can not afford yet, but why pay more for less space if I can get a lagoon that is just as fast in normal cruising conditions as you claim!

[D&D]

Originally Posted by dennisail

the fantastic claim that...lagoon will be as fast as a Schionning down wind

There must be some misunderstanding(s). We certainly did not intend to claim that Lagoons were 'performance' vessels, in the same sense that may be applied to Schionnings, on any wind angle. What we hoped to suggest was that Lagoons (or at least the L440) perform comparatively well down wind. We have never competed against a Schionning downwind...and we don't 'compete' in the sense of trimming when vessels are on parallel course anyway...but we wouldn't be at all surprised to lose that competition, altho hopefully not embarrassingly so. Our (admittedly limited) experience sailing other cats suggested to us that the L440 well-and-truly held its own down wind. Into the wind the L440 is less 'competitive', but even there the difference was not embarrassing to the L440...and not in any sense that will trouble cruisers.

Anyway, we certainly made it clear that we don't suggest the L440 is a performance vessel...and we regret any confusion in our comments. The L440 is a cruising vessel...and, in our humble view, a very, very good one.

So we ask again, what in your view is a "barge like cat" that would be incapable of bringing apparent wind forward?

[Lagoon4us]

In 18mths now of sailing in the Med from Northern Croatia to Southern Turkey we have not had a single yacht sail past us of any type, brand or configuration, we average 7 knots and love it washing machine and all.

[JusDreaming]

Originally Posted by ArtifexStonemas

And another great candidate. The lagoon 420/450 was on my list and will certainly stay on it. Some sailors say that the luxury and quality on the dock , often is a strike against the sailing/built quality/performance while underway.

It is a compromise whenever you buy a boat. Thank you.

D&D said it correctly, we chartered for years always on a different type of boat, before choosing ours'. It was great fun and we learned to sail cats on other peoples' boats

[Lagoon4us]

We trim often, our cat isn't overloaded BUT we have 2 blade fixed props, USUALLY we can count on half windspeed plus up to 20% if reaching.

On the breeze we have sailed full rig in solid 20knot wind with gusts to 27knots sitting on 7 to 8.5 knots on the wind.

With reacher in 22knots we sat on 9.5,

Dead down wind about 50% of windspeed.

Comfort with high cruising speeds suits us, as i said before NO Mono has ever sailed past us.

All of this is variable to sea state of course.

[REsCat]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

There's nothing, simply nothing like popping two genoas on the same foil, run the sheets outside the side stays ie in the spinnaker blocks, pull mainsheet tension on with both halyard and topping lift (no main) connected to end of boom and sailing up to 10 deg either side of DDW.

The autopilot goes on holiday! Viva la 'wing-a-wing'.....


I forgot to add, If the wind increases or you need to reduce sail/sailing is finished simply tack and furl, the two sails furl nicely...

But what would i know? Cheers

Interesting, I am familiar with this concept and intrigued by it .... so you have identical genoas that you specifically had made , or have you just added a second reasonably similar one that you acquired. And do you leave this setup on all the time?

Do you fly this arrangement with other wind angles?

Bob

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

There's nothing, simply nothing like popping two genoas on the same foil, run the sheets outside the side stays ie in the spinnaker blocks, pull mainsheet tension on with both halyard and topping lift (no main) connected to end of boom and sailing up to 10 deg either side of DDW.

The autopilot goes on holiday! Viva la 'wing-a-wing'.....

But what would i know? Cheers

Actually there is, its sailing downwind on a broad broad reach, with the Assy. the assy lets me point up to beam reach or even slightly closer and lets me drop off to also make a mark, No reasonable multi should be aiming to sail DDW, its the slowest point of sail for a multi and your target is rarely DDW, its all about VMG to the waypoint

[Lagoon4us]

Hence 10 deg either side, genoas are identical, we set them up if we want to sail balanced on crossings with minimal friction. Otherwise we run our FFR (Flat furling reacher)
Works for us.