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Old 25-08-2013, 19:53   #31
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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Hitting one or more 200 Nm days on a longer passage would not surprise me - if you keep the boat light, press her some and you come from the racing crowd. (This is hardly the case of a typical mom&pop crew though.)
We can only speak of our own experience. As we said earlier, 200nm days are definitely not common, but nor are they rare...and we do NOT keep the boat light, or press her. There is (now distant!) racing experience here, but once the Captain's happy with the trim, we tend to leave it, irrespective of whether there's any vessel(s) on a parallel course...until the wind or course changes, of course.

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Otherwise, last year we timed a couple of lagoons of this size and they averaged some 140 Nm a day over a long downwind voyage.... Sailing dead downwind they seemed to hit the wall somewhere between 7 and 8 knots.
Unless we're talking about light winds, that's not our experience. That said, we use 1000nm/week as a long-range guide which is about that 140nm/day figure, but that includes any wind direction(s). Dead downwind we have certainly been well above the figures suggested.


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I am not sure why so many would be sailors get fixated on illusory, magic 200 Nm days. They are pretty unattainable to most crew/boat combos. I think a 140 Nm day average is great anyways and if we think of the comfort on the passage then most cats win against most monos, hands down.

There is a brand new one here (possibly a 440) and she is downright ugly. Strange, as there is a 380 five docks away and she is so pretty.

People! Sail pretty boats!!!
We agree with all that. As for the "downright ugly" vessel, if she's brand new she'll be a 450 as Lagoon stopped building the 440 in 2010...and, while we tend to agree the 450 is not that attractive, no doubt her owner would feel otherwise! Each to their own, especially when it comes to looks!!
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Old 26-08-2013, 12:15   #32
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Re: What is your happy medium cat by comparison for a couple?

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Fair enuf. We're not actually looking at the moment so we're out of touch, but anecdotal observations seem to suggest the market is still 'soft', i.e. a buyers' market...and there are a lot of L440's out there. So make-a-ridiculous-offer (subject to survey and sea trials, of course) still sounds like a reasonable stragety, irrespective of an asking price apparently above your range?




We tend to do most of our passage-making on autopilot, with a remote that allows us to stay dry in the saloon...most of the time. When we must be on the flybridge in foul weather, it's time for the wet weather gear. There's a (factory standard) bimini & dodger up there, but we tend to use it more as a sun shade than a weather shade. That said, we know of at least one 440 with a substantial hardtop with surrounding clears over and around the flybridge.



We can't really comment on the 420 as we never sailed on one. There are, however, plenty of posts around by 420 owners.

Good luck with your search.
Thanks for the info. I am sure the 440 is out of my range. Even a 380 would be tough. The bridge just seems so far away from the cockpit.
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Old 26-08-2013, 14:05   #33
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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(...) We agree with all that. As for the "downright ugly" vessel, if she's brand new she'll be a 450 as Lagoon stopped building the 440 in 2010...and, while we tend to agree the 450 is not that attractive, no doubt her owner would feel otherwise! Each to their own, especially when it comes to looks!!
Hey,

It is 450, I looked at the markings today. Nice step on the topsides next to transom - friendly boat if you are docking alongsides.

I think it is the top-bridge-control that makes her so unsightly. It will be a loooong run for the driver if they are to anyhow participate in any berthing action ;-(

Look, when we talk miles sailed per day, what I am talking about is if you take a 3k Nm run and you average over the rhumb line. You can look up last year's ARC results (which had fabulous and uncommon wind conditions). You will find I am 100% right saying 140 miles a day is a good run. We simply calculate things differently beacause I only ever sail long stretches of water, cross calms and gales, and I average accordingly.

My insight into cats comes less from sailing them, more from providing wx routing to them (also to Lagoons 440). I am yet to see one that will average 200 Nm days (maybe an older Outremer could do that, not sure though). Hitting speeds is one thing, averaging high miledays on a crossing is another.

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Old 26-08-2013, 17:02   #34
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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I think it is the top-bridge-control that makes her so unsightly. It will be a loooong run for the driver if they are to anyhow participate in any berthing action ;-(
As we suggested, "unsightly" varies (enormously!) according to the viewer.

We certainly find the flybridge attractive, to look at and to sail with. Our experience suggests our skipper can attend any berthing action from the flybridge as quickly as anyone coming out of a cockpit.

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Look, when we talk miles sailed per day, what I am talking about is if you take a 3k Nm run and you average over the rhumb line. You can look up last year's ARC results (which had fabulous and uncommon wind conditions). You will find I am 100% right saying 140 miles a day is a good run. We simply calculate things differently beacause I only ever sail long stretches of water, cross calms and gales, and I average accordingly.

My insight into cats comes less from sailing them, more from providing wx routing to them (also to Lagoons 440). I am yet to see one that will average 200 Nm days (maybe an older Outremer could do that, not sure though). Hitting speeds is one thing, averaging high miledays on a crossing is another.
As we said, we work on 1,000nm/week for long voyage planning, cross calms and gales. So a 140nm day is indeed a good run, but not that unusual. We most definitely do not average 200nm days!
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Old 26-08-2013, 17:12   #35
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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Our experience suggests our skipper can attend any berthing action from the flybridge as quickly as anyone coming out of a cockpit.


That is interesting to know.
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Old 26-08-2013, 19:19   #36
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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As we suggested, "unsightly" varies (enormously!) according to the viewer. (...)
Yep. It is in the eye. And things grow on us too. When we saw the first vertical-window Lagoons, we hated them. Today I look at them and see them just like any other cat. I do see the practical side of them too having been on 'ugly' Lagoons and some 'pretty' cats with huge, slanted windows. Lagoon wins hands down here.

Glad to hear you like the top bridge. I bet it gives very good sights and better horizon in high swells.

Fair winds,
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:54   #37
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Just went through nearly all of the brain trauma outlined in this thread. The process is a series of compromises. Our decision was somewhat driven by comfort and head room (I'm 6'3" and 220) ... Don't mind walking sideways down hallways, ducking under doorways and worm crawling into bed if its a weeklong charter, but for a true liveaboard - I couldn't do it. So none of the 38-42' would work. All the 50's would, but it's way more boat than we need and the price jump was extreme. In the 45' range, it varies widely.
Comfort, ease of short handed sailing, and easy access to service / support were key. Decided against daggerboards ...
The other driving force for our decision was simple value for the dollar and budgetary constraints. When we narrowed it down to Leopard 44 vs Antares... We simple couldn't justify the extra $270k.
Just ordered our Leopard 44'!!

Fair seas to you
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:21   #38
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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Just ordered our Leopard 44'!!

Fair seas to you
Nick
Congratulations Nick! What's the delivery timetable? ...and your first voyage plan??

Wishing you fair winds and following seas, in good health, always...
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:27   #39
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Congratulations Nick! What's the delivery timetable? ...and your first voyage plan??

Wishing you fair winds and following seas, in good health, always...
Should take delivery in one year (August 2014). Plan to get to know her locally in Tampa Bay and short gulf cruises and then head to the keys and Bahamas for winter '14-'15
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Old 28-08-2013, 18:21   #40
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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Just went through nearly all of the brain trauma outlined in this thread. The process is a series of compromises.

Just ordered our Leopard 44'!!

Fair seas to you
Nick
Neato!!

Fair winds.
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Old 28-08-2013, 18:22   #41
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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Should take delivery in one year (August 2014). Plan to get to know her locally in Tampa Bay and short gulf cruises and then head to the keys and Bahamas for winter '14-'15
Would love to see it.
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Old 16-09-2013, 22:22   #42
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

Nice. The 44 does appear have nice features. Is it really taking 11 months to get one to you? Did you go with the 3 or 4 cabin? How much of forward visibility issue is there in saloon?
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Old 19-09-2013, 11:39   #43
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

Hi there,
I felt immediate empathy with the comment "become as near as possible to a full-time boat buyer..." For the past 2 years I feel like searching for the right boat had become my second job! No day passes without thinking and considering the many options of what to buy so a life long dream could be fulfilled.

1. When you buy a boat, a catamaran in particular you are investing a great deal of money so you want to get it right. The risks feel great.

2. Buyer Beware - Everyone is selling or pushing some hidden agenda, it is the nature of things. All sellers will tell you that their boat is the best. When searching for a boat your job is as much to look at differences and as well as determining who is telling what and why. (BS detector needed) Somehow you have to listen to all and trust no one...
(This is why forums such as this are like gold as mostly the views appear to be without basis and from others who have worn a path before you )

3. Owners who once have committed to a boat will have purchased due to a variety of reasons that may be similar to your needs but no guarantee and no way of knowing...

4. When you are working like a woman possessed to make this "Big Hairy Audacious Goal" happen it is very difficult to give the time but also the funds to "charter". We kept thinking we would rather keep the funds and holiday leave for our boat and the final escape plan. "Success takes massive and determined effort with sacrifice" Our decision to buy was made more difficult by distance, Tasmania has some catamarans off course but monohulls rule in this part of the world. Research was long distance based for us.
5. Somewhere and only you can do this is work out what are the important points of difference. What are you non-negotiable needs married to your desires? After hours of research you will find that certain boat options start to fall away as they no longer meet “must have” list.
6. You will find that you may change your mind on important criteria as a result of working out exactly what it is that you want - this OK, and it is an important step in the buying process. For us it meant stepping up to a bigger financial commitment but for you it might be more comfort over speed, or changing the departure date to a little later.
7. Finally our greatest learning curve came when we decided it really didn’t matter too much in the end anyhow. Once the pressure was taken off we realised that all boats are compromises at some level and give or take most things, all boats should be able to get you to the same beach without too much trouble.
For us, we ending up throwing our budget completely out the window, and purchased the boat that just fitted our criteria the best. Our compromises came as we decided life was too short, we had worked too hard not to follow our dream.
Safety was my big ticket item as I am not a sailor (yet). My husband’s desires were different to mine. He wanted a monohull and had been searching for the right boat for 30 years. We compromised as we all do and hopefully we will be happy with our purchase – a new catana 42 which will be ours next year.
Good luck with your search, it is an exciting time!
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Old 19-09-2013, 16:33   #44
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

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a new catana 42...will be ours next year.
Woo Hoo! Congratulations...exciting times indeed!!

Our nearly 4yr vessel search would support most of what you say about the process. We enjoyed being boat buyers with so many new 'friends' anxious to make us happy but for us now (and for you soon) is the best part. There are certainly some magnificent cruising areas around Tassie...and the whole world's within reach with a solid 'blue water' cruiser. While you're dreaming about the new arrival into your lives, check out our website for some cruising-in-comfort ideas that may add to your enjoyment.

We wish you good health and safe sailing on your new vessel with fair winds and following seas
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Old 19-09-2013, 17:17   #45
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Re: What is Your Happy Medium Cat by Comparison for a Couple?

Thanks D & D
We are very much looking forward to the next phase...
Our plan is to start in Turkey which is almost as far away from home as you can get - perfect starting point!

I did go to your site I was impressed with shark shield combo - didn't know there was such a thing. Great idea.

I too have started a website - it is my escape point and folly, a place to gather all information about the boat itself, the process and the journey. I am hoping to start gathering interviews from others involved in the ocean. Via Kiss the Fish.
Hope you and others can visit and send me a kiss

Cheers
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