Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-05-2012, 05:47   #16
Commercial Member
 
Mark Johnson's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Bern NC
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 1,565
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

MANY serious voyages have been made in safety, (not just luck), by quite small cats, that were designed and built for the voyage. This means good wing clearance, visibility forward, and either NO bridge deck cabin, or one WITHOUT standing headroom.

In Production boats... Short, tall, ass dragging, "condos", that have made crossings successfully anyway, did so with a great deal of good luck. They are NOT a good choice for REAL long distance cruising!

In custom "one offs", Wharram, and Woods designs come to mind, as good candidates. There are a few exceptional others as well.

Our Australian friends, Chris & Karen, took their custom built/modified cat, "Magic Carpet", around the world, on a 10 year voyage, with NO major issues!

This boat started out at < 29' LOA. (It had been production hulls... Seawind or the like). Chris had a talented builder extend the transoms to make her 34', and build a SUPER light weight, < 5' headroom cabin, to bridge the deck. It was kept light, and the wing clearance was appropriate to her size. With her roller furling boom, the boat was set up for a retired couple, and with great skill, they got the most out of this little cat.

Modifications like this, to a SMALL production cat, are "usually" a big mistake, because folks still try to have standing headroom, at the expense of wing clearance, they add substantially to the weight of the boat, and in designing the mods, they don't know what they're doing.

Not so with "Magic Carpet". The intelligent design, the boat's excellent rebuild, and the flawless execution of their 10 year voyage, were spot on.

Chris & Karen... "GOODONYA MATE"!

M.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sisalsousedforlandingandkillingfishtokeepmessoffbackdeck.jpg
Views:	365
Size:	407.0 KB
ID:	40861   Click image for larger version

Name:	MAGICCARPETjustcruisin'.jpg
Views:	345
Size:	408.1 KB
ID:	40862  

Click image for larger version

Name:	MAGICCARPETlookingsleekandbusinesslike.jpg
Views:	369
Size:	409.4 KB
ID:	40863  
__________________

__________________
"Let us be kind to one another, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".
Mark Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 11:12   #17
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by webejammin View Post
We looked at trimarans before buying , we found not much room but there fast.
First off not every one has the same definition of what a blue water cruiser is.

I am looking at what I define as "at least a semi blue water boat" and will most likely wind up with an F-boat. My take is that something like an F31 has as much room as a Warram Cat of similar size. A cat with more room from a non open deck often takes a hit in its blue water capability.

George's Woods 36 would be a good example of a very sea worthy cat most folks would view as a blue water boat with a very good margin of safety. On the other hand it has no where near as much room as similar size cats with a comfortable state room.

Another consideration is how much the speed of George's boat contributes to how much safer it is than a slower boat. It is quite possible to outrun a lot of bad weather with many Woods designs or F-boats.

One big advantage I see with the F-boats is that you can pull a 31 out of the water and tow it to a local storage yard where monthly rent in my area is $US30 a month, a lot less than docking fees. You can also tow it to places like the Florida Keys, Sea of Cortez, or big lakes out West and spend more time (for less money) sailing at your destination instead of sailing to get to your destination.

That being said natives in the South Pacific sailed over lots of blue water with very small proas. The point being that the most important factor in determining what the smallest blue water boat is depends on the level of seamanship of the sailors on the boat.
__________________

__________________
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 14:08   #18
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
(...) Another consideration is how much the speed of George's boat contributes to how much safer it is than a slower boat. It is quite possible to outrun a lot of bad weather with many Woods designs or F-boats. (...)
Any hard data, numbers, calculations to prove your point? Or just repeating an old urban legend?

Sure, Banque Populaire V, Idec, Groupama and the likes, can outrun some weather systems. But that's just about it.

BTW Please notice that BPV, Idec, etc. can take on the worst of the sailing weather, not what you can say about many small boats.

Cheers,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 14:45   #19
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No longer post here
Boat: Catalac Catamaran
Posts: 2,462
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

My Catalac 8M has crossed the Atlantic. I think the Catalac 8M or Heavenly Twins 26-27 would be as small as I would go for Blue water.
__________________
Tropic Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 14:48   #20
Registered User
 
Sand crab's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 3,157
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Any hard data, numbers, calculations to prove your point? Or just repeating an old urban legend?

Sure, Banque Populaire V, Idec, Groupama and the likes, can outrun some weather systems. But that's just about it.

BTW Please notice that BPV, Idec, etc. can take on the worst of the sailing weather, not what you can say about many small boats.

Cheers,
b.
Gregor Tarjan makes the same statement in his book about speed equals safety as long as you aren't on the edge. They aren't talking about outrunning a storm (and we are talking typhoons, hurricanes, and cyclones) but getting out of the way. These faster multis and mono are capable of 200 mile days.
Hurricane Katrina was huge but hurricane force winds were only about 120 miles from the eye. That's only a little over a days sail to get from one side to the other BEFORE it reaches you. Most of the forecasts give you a much longer warning than this. Sometimes things just don't work out then you're screwed. But I'll bet you were wishing you had a faster boat by then.
I'll bet George's boat is really fast and could do the job.
__________________
We don't need no stinking badges.
Sand crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 17:46   #21
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,088
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Magic Carpet was a Rogers design. (Adrian Rogers - Australia). Chris and Karen also are proof of the suitability of outboards for world cruising, they did it with one Yammie 9.9

Alas I have to confess the smallest boat to do a circumnav in would be a mono - like this one. Just under twelve foot
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	acrohc2.jpg
Views:	377
Size:	42.2 KB
ID:	40883  
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 17:58   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 82
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

I ordered a Corsair 37' as my choice. Probably not the best value out there but ticks all my boxes. Has 6'5" headroom, big enough to not feel cramped and averages 11 knots loaded. So the 250+ nm a day is a big plus. 50cm draft, can be pulled up into the shallows. Back cockpit big and traveller off the back. Uses an outboard so easy to maintain. I will make a fully enclosed cockpit so 2 more could sleep out there and can stay dry when it gets rough. Also a tent cover for the whole boat to keep the boat cool and can sleep on the tramps. We are based in the tropics so always warm.
__________________
Mike w is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:11   #23
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
Gregor Tarjan makes the same statement in his book about speed equals safety as long as you aren't on the edge. They aren't talking about outrunning a storm (and we are talking typhoons, hurricanes, and cyclones) but getting out of the way. These faster multis and mono are capable of 200 mile days.
Hurricane Katrina was huge but hurricane force winds were only about 120 miles from the eye. That's only a little over a days sail to get from one side to the other BEFORE it reaches you. Most of the forecasts give you a much longer warning than this. Sometimes things just don't work out then you're screwed. But I'll bet you were wishing you had a faster boat by then.
I'll bet George's boat is really fast and could do the job.
Maybe.

But the OP, I believe, thinks about an F31 (for themselves), hence my comment to not look at what 'others can do'. F31 cannot outrun real bad weather unless it is not real bad weather. (Bad wx - as per your definition: a bad TD, TS, TC or an extratropical system).

200 miles a day: yes, but can a small boat make this to windward in confused seas: no.

Why to windward, here:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...GVHf8VL4WW9s2C

You assume some level of wx equipment, wx awarness and skills to use the wx information. Let's assume you are correct in your assumption. But let's not build our cruising plans on that. Very many people go cruising with next to nil understanding of how to get wx information, how often to get it and how to interpret it.

As far as Katrina goes (much as we should try to avoid making valid judgments based on one specific storm):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...05-2145UTC.jpg

Have a look at the picture and tell where you would like to 'get out of the way', for I cannot see such a place in the picture.

Also, when you say 'only 120' miles of hurricane force winds, then please remember that hurricane force starts at 64 knots or so, at which level sailing may actually be already reduced to the 'survival mode'. Now how far off this 64 knots line do you think storm winds or confused seas can extend? Another 120 miles perhaps? Or is it like the winds and seas rapidly abate once we are out of the 64+ kts zone?

I am a great fan of small boats, fast boats, and small fast boats. But other than our academic discussion here, I beg all sailors in small, fast boats: try NOT to base your sailing decisions on factors like 'fast enough to get out of the way'. Unless you are talking boats like VOR, IMOCA or the handful of amazing, beautiful and sexy things called maxi catamarans.

Love,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:16   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

I think this thread is lacking in common sense. You may enjoy cruising in a 12 foot boat. I guess you could cruise on a air mattress, but neither show up at cape flattery. I think L &L cruised in a heavy displacement 24 footer. If you really want to trust your boat in a storm that is the smallest I would go out with. When your in waves over your head you want a boat you can trust. Seaworthiness tops anything else.
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:28   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,459
Images: 69
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Of course boats smaller than the maxi tri's can sail fast enough to avoid major weather systems. Initially cyclones only move at around 4-6 knots. And you don't run directly AWAY from them, you sidestep them. If you can sail 150-200 miles in a day you can be well away from a cyclone's predicted path in day or so.

Friends of ours moved their boat from Airlie beach to Magnetic island to dodge a cyclone. By the time the cyclone arrived they were hundreds of miles away.

Back to the OP's question - I'd probably want a boat around 9-10 metres as a minimum for cruising in a reasonable level of comfort. BUT, I know a guy who cruises a Seawind 24. Wouldn't be my choice, but he enjoys it.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:30   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oriental, NC
Boat: Mainship Pilot 34
Posts: 1,429
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Didn't I read that the CE A Oceans rating is only available for cats of 40' or greater?

David
__________________
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:32   #27
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,459
Images: 69
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

There is no part about buying a boat that I would use CE ratings as a guide for.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:49   #28
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
(...) I think L &L cruised in a heavy displacement 24 footer.(...)
Some say she was actually designed as a mid-displacement boat, but after they packed their stuff and provisions she actually became a heavy-displacement one ...

I believe that the only way one can cruise in a small AND light boat is to carry a watermaker and sleep in hotels (or on the beach, for the romantic ones). (vide: ocean rowers).

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:52   #29
Registered User
 
Sand crab's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 3,157
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

Have a look at the picture and tell where you would like to 'get out of the way', for I cannot see such a place in the picture.
Umm Barnikiel, Texas looks good to me and it would be a downwind sail.
And the forecast accurately predicted the landfall 2 1/2 days in advance.
Anyway I don't want to get in a pissing contest. Bluewater to me means doing it comfortably and safely with the stuff you need to do this. Like the neccesary electronics to stay connected to the forecasts. Some of these boats mentioned doing this are pretty small. For me. Just because someone crossed the Atlantic in a bathtub doesn't mean I want to do it.
__________________
We don't need no stinking badges.
Sand crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 18:58   #30
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Re: what is the smallest boat you take blue water cruising?

36 foot cat is considered the starting point for blue water insurance.
If I went under 36 feet on my purchase, my insurance premium would have been double for crossing from France to Newport Rhode Island USA
__________________

__________________
Cotemar is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising, multihull, water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.