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Old 15-05-2012, 06:04   #136
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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the 32 is a good boat - the LRC not so much. The LRC had deisels in the end of a boat that wasn't really designed to carry them. The standard 32 is a much better boat.
Not to thread hijack but Could you elaborate on that? I viewed one recently, liked it though the bottom edge of the transoms did seem a a few inches below the water considering no dink on the back. Do the diesels add so much weight that it severely impairs the boat or just hampers it a little?
Also are any of the smaller (below 37' )cats cored below the waterline or almost all of them solid glass below wl, and should that sway someones buying decision on a smaller cat?
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Old 15-05-2012, 06:54   #137
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

One little pet peeve of mine with small catamarans is the lack of transom steps. Why do most sub 9m boats not have them?

And it seems like a designer would add length to the hulls to gain speed, but keep the interior of the boat fairly compact like a 9m.
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Old 15-05-2012, 07:04   #138
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
Not to thread hijack but Could you elaborate on that? I viewed one recently, liked it though the bottom edge of the transoms did seem a a few inches below the water considering no dink on the back. Do the diesels add so much weight that it severely impairs the boat or just hampers it a little?
Are they safe? I can find no reports to the contrary. Are they comfortable in a seaway? ...Not very...
(hobby horsing)
Look at the layout of the Catalac 8M with inboards diesels. The engines are installed far enough forward in the boat that they are almost mid boat mounted. The idea being to keep the weight off the ends of the boat, which should be the rule in all catamarans under 40' (are you reading this Fountaine Pajot?)

This engine position causes maintenance issues in a small catamaran but improves the way the boat handles and there is very good engine access. I have pulled an engine and had it sitting in the cockpit in less than 1 hour with no assistance at all.
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Old 15-05-2012, 07:56   #139
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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The idea being to keep the weight off the ends of the boat, which should be the rule in all catamarans under 40' (are you reading this Fountaine Pajot?)
Tropic Cat,

Not true at all. I can tell you first hand. If the hull is designed properly than diesels in the stern is not an issue.
The benefit is plenty of room around the engines for easy maintenance. Also has no heat or engine smells inside the boat.

Keep in mind all the high production cats do this as standard now. Lagoon, Fountaine Pajot, Gemini, Robertson Cain....
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Old 15-05-2012, 08:16   #140
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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Tropic Cat,

Not true at all. I can tell you first hand. If the hull is designed properly than diesels in the stern is not an issue. ....
Yes I certainly do agree that modern catamaran design dictates the engine be stuck in the back of the boat. Where we differ is in that if you think this has anything to do with better 'engine access' or better sea keeping, you are flat out misinformed.

Read any paper on catamaran boat design where weight distribution is addressed and without exception all early designers purposely designed the weight out of the ends of a catamaran. It's why trampolines were adopted and still employed. I know I should end this here, but you touched a hot button with me and I'm in a unique position of having been on more cruising catamarans than most people.

The one and only reason boat design took this turn to 'put the engine in the back of the boat' is ... to sell more boats .... by... offering terrific interior layouts unencumbered by messy things like engines. (Women just love it) and to buy the cheaper engine sail drive components rather than designing a proper propeller shaft system. Both were Brilliant marketing moves, but then again their customers are first time boat owners.... easy marks...

I know a guy who bought a modern new French catamaran with the engine/sail drives under the transom steps. It is almost impossible to check the oil without falling in the water (which he has done). It is impossible to access fuel filters during a Gulf Stream crossing, where inevitably the stirred up junk in all of our fuel tanks manages to plug the fuel filters just when we need the engines. Unless of course you're an acrobat with Barnum and Bailey Circus.

How a person can take this turn in boat design and and attempt to turn it into a catamaran sailing benefit is beyond me. It was done to accommodate females ...not sailors. (female sailors excepted).

End of my rant.... (sigh)
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Old 15-05-2012, 08:24   #141
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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One little pet peeve of mine with small catamarans is the lack of transom steps. Why do most sub 9m boats not have them? .
Maybe it's the location of the rudders. Certainly in the case of the Catalac 8m, 9m, 900 designs, the rudders are mounted to the rear of the transom. Larger cats tend to have them further forward on the underside of them, more like a conventional mono setup.

My own Catalac 900 has a removable boarding ladder that can be easily fitted to the port side of the transom to aid access from the water but the the actual rear platform (there is no gap between the two rear pontoons on the Catalac 8m, 9m, 900 models) is only about a foot off the waterline anyway.
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Old 15-05-2012, 09:05   #142
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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I know a guy who bought a modern new French catamaran with the engine/sail drives under the transom steps. It is almost impossible to check the oil without falling in the water (which he has done). It is impossible to access fuel filters during a Gulf Stream crossing, where inevitably the stirred up junk in all of our fuel tanks manages to plug the fuel filters just when we need the engines. Unless of course you're an acrobat with Barnum and Bailey Circus.
Unfortunately, knowing a guy that....
And owning the real boat is very different. My stern stairs are very large and do not have those issues. My fuel filters are easily accessed in a locker in the cockpit.
These engine rooms are so roomy and well lit that you can easily climb in them offshore and close the hatch behind you and fix anything you so choose and when completed open the hatch and go back to the cockpit.
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Old 15-05-2012, 09:10   #143
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So is the hobby horsing the result of narrower more streamlined hulls where fatter bulls don't knife up and down as much? Or are you saying all shorter cats hobby horse in a seaway?
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Old 15-05-2012, 09:15   #144
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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So is the hobby horsing the result of narrower more streamlined hulls where fatter bulls don't knife up and down as much? Or are you saying all shorter cats hobby horse in a seaway?
My guess is that it is weight placement, seastate, and point of sail.

Cheers
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Old 15-05-2012, 11:19   #145
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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My guess is that it is weight placement, seastate, and point of sail.

Cheers
Yes, but add hull design to that list. Early production catamarans like mine were subject to the British interpretation of proper hull design. They added considerable amounts of rocker in their hull designs which also contributes to hobby horsing on short waterline catamarans.

Now before everyone jumps in and notes the transition to relatively flat keels in modern catamaran designs .... allow me to point out that the winning America's cup designs are wandering back to chine hulls and small amounts of rocker in their hull designs. Perhaps the British had it right 30 years ago after all.
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Old 15-05-2012, 11:24   #146
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Unfortunately, knowing a guy that....
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]And owning the real boat is very different. ...
His boat is a Mahe 36
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Old 15-05-2012, 11:49   #147
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

From John Shuttleworth:
2.Pitching and hobbyhorsing.

Many early multihulls were prone to hobbyhorsing, and pitching. This was caused by too much rocker on the hull profile, and fine V sections both fore and aft. As hull shapes improved tending towards more U shaped underbodies particularly aft, pitching still remained a problem, because the large width of the stern sections caused the sea to lift the sterns as the boat passed over the wave, driving the bow down. However we now know that pitching can be dramatically reduced by finer sections at the stern combined with the center of buoyancy being moved forward in the immersed hull, and aft in the lifting hull (ref 2 and 3 ). This effect can be achieved in both cats and tris, giving a very comfortable and easy motion upwind. At the same time windward performance is improved, because the apparent wind direction is more stable across the sails.

Multihull Design Considerations for Seaworthiness
Multihull Design - Links Library
Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article
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Old 15-05-2012, 12:17   #148
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

Tropic Cat,

And then your friend woke up from his dream.
You cannot check the oil from the steps and the fuel filters are in the lazaret in the cock pit.
Alcohol may have been involved if he falls off the boat checking his oil. Just sayin.

Donít believe everything you think.
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Old 15-05-2012, 16:34   #149
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

Transom access to engines, Galley up were both the products of designers desire to maximise heads and berths for the charter trade. Both can work but are not the product of functional driven design, rather charter "more bedrooms with ensuite please" design.

Don't get up me, if you have the configuration, I am not suggesting your boat is the spawn of Satan, just noting that I am old enough to have been a spectator in the design evolution of modern cats.

Having said that the transom access to engines is in my view very worrying. There are only a few boats that I have seen that do external engine access well. (Lightwave 38 and particularly Lightwave 45 are two).
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Old 15-05-2012, 16:58   #150
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Re: What is the Smallest Multihull You Can Take Blue Water Cruising?

Well there are only two real designs for cat engines.
Diesels in the sterns or
Gas outboards sticking through open holes in the bottom of your boat.
Its your call.
Most cruisers prefer diesels for fire safty durability and range.
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