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Old 04-01-2014, 00:44   #61
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

OK, so women do like to travel and go interesting places and see new things.
I would say they just don't like the difficulty and hardships that living on a boat entails.
Men take 'sailing' as a competitive challenge, they can 'take it' and 'fix it' because they are smarter and tougher than the other guys. Same kind of thing with many things.
Women are attracted to men with these qualities. But when a boat is also a home,
it needs to not be a sport, as I've taken to saying.
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:37   #62
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

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Originally Posted by bethflkys View Post
I guess he is not intentionally insulting. Nonetheless, insulting! And definitely trying to discourage women from posting here.
If you're referring to what Therapy wrote, I think he's right, especially referring to women of my generation. This is an oversimplification, but where women born in 1940 grew up in Western cultures, they all were programmed to "obey" their spouses. The careers open to them, their religious beliefs, and their acculturation did not point towards adventure, but towards a secure "home front."

How, then, did they rear their children? Well, this took place along a broad spectrum of beliefs. I taught my daughter to work on cars as well as "the feminne arts" and my sons, to cook,iron, sew, and work on cars, because i thought they were "survival skills". Actually, I am proud of that, but one woman can only do so much. And as Therapy suggested, I might be an unusual woman.

It is almost impossible to get outside what your culture allows for you, and it's better for women in the West, since WWII, because they took on men's jobs and did well in them....which rearranged the world a bit.

Now women in the West can take on any career, but it takes time and affluence to determine that she wants her own boat; and more time, and affluence, to ensure she can be an effective offshore skipper. YOu might have noticed that sometimes an offshore singlehander, male, meets a singlehander, female, and bliss ensues. Well, I know of two cases. It is very rare, but so welcome when it does.

This has something to do with chauvinism, but far more to do with people,
the forces interacting upon them, their desires and capabilities, and the permissions their backgrounds give them.

I do not think it was about male chauvinism, but the fact that women who can be seduced into a sailing life are rare.

Many women I have met who might have been vulnerable to such an exploration, were at the time involved with complete support systems in either hobbies like stuff to do with horses or charitable works, or flying, scuba diving, or other sports...or work. Those women's partners would have had to convince them that sailing might offer them something worth giving up all that they already had in place for.... Just sayin' It's easier to follow a partner's dream when you are highly motivated to do that for your own reasons, and don't have a competing dream going on the outside.

I hope this helps,

Ann

P.S. I do not think Therapy's post was intended to discourage women from posting. Furthermore, I think that accusation is ill seeming.

If you want to post, then do it. If someone doesn't like what you posted (as happened to me the other day) consider it, and behave accordingly to your evaluation. But if you want to play here, baby, you're in the kitchen; it can get warm here, and I would not expect excessive chivalry. Some of the men on this forum write as if they are pretty balanced; others do not.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:06   #63
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

Australian men are very balanced. They have a chip on each shoulder. Keep posting ladies, you wear the naysayers down, not give into them, and I do not feel that Therapy is in that category to be honest.

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Old 04-01-2014, 06:49   #64
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

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But many are happy with predictable and safe, and as I don't want the seas to get crowded and the landfalls abandoned, I wouldn't change that!
I think it wrong to characterise the problem because its "not safe" I mean any view of the statistics would show sailing to be far safer then many things women are heavily involved in ( horse riding, rising to hounds etc ) . Lots if women ski and a good few hand glide and sky dive etc.

I think the issue is the attraction to a machine that a boat is. Men like the challenge of fixing a machine and then travelling on it to places. Th destination is often irrelevant. Women prefer the destination and the experiences there, often involving social contexts as women are more social beings and enjoy such interaction.

I don't think the issue is safe or not safe, more interesting to a women or not. The process of ocean crossing or long sails does not appeal to many women it seems.

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Old 04-01-2014, 08:09   #65
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

If she just doesn't like the idea of boat or cruising, you don't have much of a chance.

If she just isn't sure or familiar, ease her into it:
- A charter is an OK idea but you want to get her past the idea it's a vacation.
- Maybe start with a small inexpensive cruiser and do weekends on the boat while keeping it at a marina (showers, other women who like boating, etc...). Keep it fun and don't go out in bad conditions (at least initially).
- She may just flat out hate it and you have your answer.
- If she becomes frustrated with the size of the space and amenities, there's a good chance she will want to move up to a larger boat...you've got her hooked. Keep the pressure on but don't yank the hook out. Extend the cruising. Maybe spend the summer on the boat or take a longer trip if you can.
- If all goes well and you can do it financially, do a longer distance coastal trip (ICW, great loop, etc...) to get her into the idea of full time cruising while allowing her to get to land when she wants to.
- Once you've done that for a while, if you have a goal of offshore cruising, move up to some overnight passages.

Realistically, she will call enough before you get to a non-stop round the world passage but you will be further ahead than 95% of people who dream of cruising.
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:13   #66
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

What Therapy has not mentioned is the role of culture in what women ostensibly, and I deliberately use the term 'ostensibly,' want.

I don't think it can be overstated how much effect culture/social standards/morés have on how an individual turns out. Sure, human 'formation' is combined with genetics, but it is completely disingenuous and actually fairly chauvinist (and you chauvinists are also "products of your raisin'") to state that women (or men) are genetically programmed to do or like anything, whether it be childraising or voyaging.

Western society (the one I'm familiar with) turns little girls into little homemakers. Those who dissent, like me, suffer for it. I've suffered my whole life for being different. It's a real PITA to be a tomboy (look at me, I even label myself.) But if you stand a moment and observe, you will see that most of the serious sailing girls are pretty 'different' from the 'norm.'
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:43   #67
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pirate Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

Seducing a woman into stepping aboard and going sailing is easy enough.. if she likes you..
Keeping her aboard is the hard bit.. rolling sea's.. blown out sails.. engines blowing up/catching fire... periods of cold with no heat and no means to cook till you hit shore and get a new gas safety valve.. limited water.. limited space.. 24/7 same old same old...
It gets me wanting to quit sometimes.. and I enjoy it.. so don't blame a woman wanting to give up 15* life in favour of 180* again...
Unlike a man.. there's no dented ego when they walk away..
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:28   #68
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think it wrong to characterise the problem because its "not safe" I mean any view of the statistics would show sailing to be far safer then many things women are heavily involved in ( horse riding, rising to hounds etc ) . Lots if women ski and a good few hand glide and sky dive etc.

I think the issue is the attraction to a machine that a boat is. Men like the challenge of fixing a machine and then travelling on it to places. Th destination is often irrelevant. Women prefer the destination and the experiences there, often involving social contexts as women are more social beings and enjoy such interaction.

I don't think the issue is safe or not safe, more interesting to a women or not. The process of ocean crossing or long sails does not appeal to many women it seems.
And yet we've seen in the last 20 years some very impressive long-distance, solo female sailors. I suspect the difference is more cultural than inherent. Let's compare your thesis of how men sail (it's about the process, not the result) and the way women sail (wake me up when we get there) to the way men and women "typically" shop: As a man, I can retrieve a week's worth of groceries in about 15 minutes; I arrive with a list, usually centered on what's on sale, and regularly ignore entire aisles full of the crap that makes you fat and stupid. I'm often home (on a bike with a trailer) in under a hour. I don't enter a shop without knowing what I will buy, and it's difficult to tempt me otherwise. Like many men, I'm a marketer's nightmare.

By contrast, my wife can go out "shopping", be gone half the day, and still return without the thing she went out to get, but with a bunch of unnecessary crap that happened to catch her eye. Clearly, this "browsing and gathering" activity suits her personality, just as my "kill it and throw it on the fire yesterday" strategem suits mine.

Of course, all this reverses if we are in a discount chandlery. Just leave me for a hour or three.

So I would hesitate to characterize men and women in sailing quite so strongly. There are too many counter-examples. One would be the all-women race crews popular at some YCs. After a couple of seasons, actions aboard such boats look identical, save for the way the foulies are filled out, to all-male race crews.
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:28   #69
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
What Therapy has not mentioned is the role of culture in what women ostensibly, and I deliberately use the term 'ostensibly,' want.

I don't think it can be overstated how much effect culture/social standards/morés have on how an individual turns out. Sure, human 'formation' is combined with genetics, but it is completely disingenuous and actually fairly chauvinist (and you chauvinists are also "products of your raisin'") to state that women (or men) are genetically programmed to do or like anything, whether it be childraising or voyaging.

Western society (the one I'm familiar with) turns little girls into little homemakers. Those who dissent, like me, suffer for it. I've suffered my whole life for being different. It's a real PITA to be a tomboy (look at me, I even label myself.) But if you stand a moment and observe, you will see that most of the serious sailing girls are pretty 'different' from the 'norm.'
I understand it is not all genetic. In fact I brought it up with the "garage" comment.

And from another thread - a question.

Who is going to teach the Muslim women to cruise?
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:47   #70
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pirate Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

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And yet we've seen in the last 20 years some very impressive long-distance, solo female sailors. I suspect the difference is more cultural than inherent. Let's compare your thesis of how men sail (it's about the process, not the result) and the way women sail (wake me up when we get there) to the way men and women "typically" shop: As a man, I can retrieve a week's worth of groceries in about 15 minutes; I arrive with a list, usually centered on what's on sale, and regularly ignore entire aisles full of the crap that makes you fat and stupid. I'm often home (on a bike with a trailer) in under a hour. I don't enter a shop without knowing what I will buy, and it's difficult to tempt me otherwise. Like many men, I'm a marketer's nightmare.

By contrast, my wife can go out "shopping", be gone half the day, and still return without the thing she went out to get, but with a bunch of unnecessary crap that happened to catch her eye. Clearly, this "browsing and gathering" activity suits her personality, just as my "kill it and throw it on the fire yesterday" strategem suits mine.

Of course, all this reverses if we are in a discount chandlery. Just leave me for a hour or three.

So I would hesitate to characterize men and women in sailing quite so strongly. There are too many counter-examples. One would be the all-women race crews popular at some YCs. After a couple of seasons, actions aboard such boats look identical, save for the way the foulies are filled out, to all-male race crews.
True... but for them its a career choice.. a stepping stone so to speak.. no disrespect intended 'Ellen McArthurs' achievements and those of others before and since are truly awesome and beyond my abilities... but non view it as a lifestyle.. its a job.. much like a rig worker or merchant seaman.. do your stint then go home and put your feet up..
There's quitea few guys the same.. Knox Johnson for example.. did he become a live aboard.. no.. he did a few trips after yes.. but basically he reverted to Terra Firma..
Living afloat 24/7 year after year is for the very few.. in both sexes... so quit the sexism guys...
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Old 04-01-2014, 17:21   #71
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

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Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post

Western society (the one I'm familiar with) turns little girls into little homemakers. Those who dissent, like me, suffer for it. I've suffered my whole life for being different. It's a real PITA to be a tomboy (look at me, I even label myself.) But if you stand a moment and observe, you will see that most of the serious sailing girls are pretty 'different' from the 'norm.'
It's true, we sailing women are unusual. Unlike Therapy (although he seems to have backed away from this position now), I don't happen to think it's genetic. Neither of my parents were sailors or loved the sea. My love of sailing came early (at Y camp!) and I was lucky to have a place to sail as a teenager. Although the men I raced against were unfriendly for years, eventually I was accepted or at least tolerated. Because of my love of the sea, I have mostly lived near enough to it to sail, and eventually keep a big boat, and to go cruising for a couple of years in my 30s. In my house, I am the one pushing to go cruising. It is annoying to read men writing that women don't sail because we aren't adventurous. As Mr. Boatman has said, most men aren't very adventurous, either. I know I would not want to cruise with a guy who just wanted me along to cook his meals and keep his bed warm. An adventurous woman is not going to enjoy or easily accept a subservient role.

I spent some years working in collegiate athletics, and there have been collegiate women sailing programs since at least the mid 1970s. The interesting question is why do so few of these sailors continue in the sport post-college? Is it because once you are out of college, the sport is unrelentingly sexist? Or is the whole handicapping thing unappealing? I had no interest in PHRF racing after one design dinghy racing. Or is it the difference between racing and cruising -- are racers of either sex less likely to segue into cruising than someone who has never raced?


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Old 04-01-2014, 17:37   #72
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

A woman can try sailing, usually because her current man person introduces her to it. She may then decide that it is too scary/uncomfortable/ rough/basic living or it just messes her hair up. Whatever reason she has, she just says so and is happy to tell everybody about it.

If a man does not like sailing, usually after purchasing one and finding out that it is not all lounging around on the perfect day without a care in the world, or it messes their hair up, then things are not as simple. They are not going to walk into the bar and tell their mates "Oh I was so scared I nearly crapped myself and cowered in the corner of the cockpit waiting to die."

They will develop ''middle ear infections'' that prevent them from doing it. They will suddenly wish to spend more time with their loved ones. They can of course always blame the loved ones as well. Whatever reason they give, the size of the dangly bits will not be brought into question. That is what we fear the most when all is said and done.

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Old 05-01-2014, 03:50   #73
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

I have come to this post late but have read with great interest
As a woman who is coming to sailing and jumping in as far as one can, all I can say is I am hands up ready for the adventure, unknown and new. It's never been a discussion about female / male its been about loving your partner, knowing that life is short, life is a privilege so try and make the most of it.

Life has crap days regardless of being in a boat, a comfortable home or working a cubicle trying to escape to somewhere else. My aim is to share all the experiences and to learn as much before I go and then day by day. My skills are currently lacking, my commitment though is total and whatever the outcome life will certainly be interesting.

The most important part of moving towards to the dream with my husband is that we will do it together. Bad things can happen but nothing ventured nothing gained. Plus I couldn't imagine staying in my job for another 10 years doing the same thing day in day out.

It will be interesting to see how it all goes. I for one am looking forward to being part of the journey and documenting it as it goes.

cheers the Miss

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Old 05-01-2014, 09:43   #74
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Re: What Best Suits a Wife on a Catamaran?

I know one thing for sure: the sea will kill the unprepared without reference to internal plumbing, save badly installed seacocks, of course.

It's the one thing I've come to enjoy about the ocean, or at least to find a reliable point of view: the utter indifference of the environment to my continued existence. That's why I find talk about "oh, she doesn't like this" or "he won't go there" a touch academic. It's sometimes not about choice, but about living long enough to get to a place where you have choices.

I don't intend for that to sound overly dramatic, or to imply that crossing oceans on a well-found boat is particularly dangerous (it's probably less so than the average 10-mile drive on a typical highway), but that the sea, like the air from a hang glider or a small private plane, is rather intolerant of judgment errors, and this holds irrespective of sex, I think.

If you crash a car, you're still on land, still visible to others and still likely to attract enough attention to get hauled out of the wreck. If you fail to clip in during the first half-hour of your spouse's off-watch, and decide to go forward, said spouse may find him or herself a solo sailor upon wakening and available for remarriage at the next port.

If you've ever seen the forearms of a good blacksmith, there are always a couple of burns, but they are invariably very old, healed-over burns. If they are new, that's probably not a good blacksmith!
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