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Old 21-11-2012, 10:59   #46
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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Length is an obvious issue with speed too. Yet our PDQ32 is no slouch...even with the self tacking jib. But we are selling her because I have a case of "13-foot-itis" and want a 45 footer. As I look at boats in that range it's hard not to think that the new Lagoon 450 won't be a slow boat. It's weight is just hidious. Yet I turn on You Tube and watch the videos of L450's flying along. I have to wonder if these companies (like Lagoon and FP) who build such high numbers of cats in so many mid-large sizes have learned via experience how to make even a fat cat cruise at a reasonable speed. The L450 remains as #2 of our top 3 in choices for our next boat.
Cats are inherently "fast" boats - faster than equivalent mono's, if one were made, in many conditions.

The reputation for slowness comes from intentionally undersized sailplans (to reduce wear and capsize risk), and designs that emphasize comfort and capacity over performance.

Off the wind, lightly loaded, and well trimmed almost any cat can be expected to outperform a mono given similar design features, particularly if outfitted with daggerboards.
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Old 21-11-2012, 17:20   #47
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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Originally Posted by bryguy67 View Post
Length is an obvious issue with speed too. Yet our PDQ32 is no slouch...even with the self tacking jib. But we are selling her because I have a case of "13-foot-itis" and want a 45 footer. As I look at boats in that range it's hard not to think that the new Lagoon 450 won't be a slow boat. It's weight is just hidious. Yet I turn on You Tube and watch the videos of L450's flying along. I have to wonder if these companies (like Lagoon and FP) who build such high numbers of cats in so many mid-large sizes have learned via experience how to make even a fat cat cruise at a reasonable speed. The L450 remains as #2 of our top 3 in choices for our next boat.

A Maverick should be up there too, no?
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Old 26-11-2012, 14:38   #48
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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Cats are inherently "fast" boats - faster than equivalent mono's, if one were made, in many conditions.

The reputation for slowness comes from intentionally undersized sailplans (to reduce wear and capsize risk), and designs that emphasize comfort and capacity over performance.

Off the wind, lightly loaded, and well trimmed almost any cat can be expected to outperform a mono given similar design features, particularly if outfitted with daggerboards.

No way this won't get bites.
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Old 26-11-2012, 16:02   #49
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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I like that boat.
The pattern of the upholstery and curtains gave me a headache!
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Old 26-11-2012, 16:29   #50
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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The pattern of the upholstery and curtains gave me a headache!
I never saw the inside.
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Old 26-11-2012, 17:04   #51
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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No way this won't get bites.
I already fished that pond - I had a whole thread on it! Those fish are tired out.
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Old 26-11-2012, 18:19   #52
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

Not that "I" can be bothered doing this. But a simple enough way to find out speeds of productions cats would be to search thier race handicaps ;-)
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Old 26-11-2012, 18:30   #53
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

This cat is orange, and can only manage a little over 60 knots... Not the most comfortable cruiser tho...


Anyway, Sand Crab, I like the thread, and I admire your resilience and efforts to keep it on track despite the pull of the masses. (something about an eating utensil and MHWS comes to mind).

I am also interested in the Lagoon - although budget will only extend to a 380 or 410. I originally had it written of as big, slow, and ugly... but while she'l never be a mono, I can learn to love her lines, and surely we can keep her lightish, and work out how to make her go as fast she can, and well, big can be beautiful.

I guess the music to your ears is that you did not get a resounding 'Lagoons are dogs' message... but quite the contrary... it seems there's plenty of "slowest" cats out there, so there's plenty of company
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Old 26-11-2012, 21:39   #54
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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I am also interested in the Lagoon - although budget will only extend to a 380 or 410. I originally had it written of as big, slow, and ugly... but while she'l never be a mono, I can learn to love her lines, and surely we can keep her lightish, and work out how to make her go as fast she can, and well, big can be beautiful.
Start a new thread on mods for increasing the speed of lagoons. From what I've read, one of the major limiting factors is the size of the sails.

More sails = more speed = more risk of capsize if overpressed

The problem with cats is the risk of capsizing - IF it goes over, it won't come back up. A production Lagoon or FP is extremely unlikely to turn over, even when being pressed hard, supposedly because the sails are too small to create that risk.

But if you are prudent and sensible and only put up the big sails in light airs, I suspect that you could significantly improve the overall performance by extending the sail plan, as long as you keep your speed under certain limits
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Old 26-11-2012, 22:58   #55
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

Slow cats will have low length/beam ratio for their sponsons, and a high displacement/length ratio.

To get enough width in the hulls for comfort and not seriously impair the L/B ratio takes a good design if length is under 40 ft. And for these boats, you have to work hard at not overloading, otherwise your D/L ratio goes through the roof.

The popular Lagoons, 440 and likely the 450, have enough waterline length in the hulls to carry hull beams that give very comfortable boats, with good load carrying capacity. But no doubt they could be overloaded and suffer as well. There is enough happy owners to imply that their L/B and D/L ratios are fine, and probably their sail area/displacement ratio is not unusual.

I haven't seen any compilations of L/B and D/L for cats, but I think it would be quite informative. Had I continued with a cat search it was something I wanted to do. Takes some persistence to get the numbers though.
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Old 27-11-2012, 07:13   #56
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

RE: wannabee007's comment about cats "big can be beautiful"....Well, fat girls need lovin' too!
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:02   #57
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

In my experience with agents "demo's", the vessels are flying along with "just" enough fuel and water in the tanks to get by, the weight of which is really significant compared to the serious cruising requirements and of course with just basic equipment (optional "heavy" extras to be added). Maybe for a sea trial it's possible to distribute something like cement bags of an approximate anticipated load in various locations in an attempt to replicate more realistic performance with load?? Just a thought..
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:35   #58
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Your definition of equivalent has to do with length. I question the validity of using LOA to compare cats and monos.

My definition of equivalent is more accurate for comparison- ie compare cats and monos of equivalent price and living and storage capacity, and dockage and upkeep costs (beam, 2 engines, 2 hulls etc)

A 40-45 foot cat is generally equal under these more reasonable criteria to a 50-55 foot mono. Under real world cruising conditions, not sure the cat will be faster, or more comfortable, or more seaworthy. Just different, and that's what's fun about boat ownership.

All right, cat owners, refute away!
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:37   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM

Cats are inherently "fast" boats - faster than equivalent mono's, if one were made, in many conditions.

The reputation for slowness comes from intentionally undersized sailplans (to reduce wear and capsize risk), and designs that emphasize comfort and capacity over performance.

Off the wind, lightly loaded, and well trimmed almost any cat can be expected to outperform a mono given similar design features, particularly if outfitted with daggerboards.
Oops, my last reply references this post
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:59   #60
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Re: What are the slowest cats?

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My definition of equivalent is more accurate for comparison- ie compare cats and monos of equivalent price and living and storage capacity, and dockage and upkeep costs (beam, 2 engines, 2 hulls etc)
I agree on this comparison - given equivalent capability, living accommodation, overall design characteristics, etc I do believe the cat can be expected to be as fast, if not faster under most points of sail.

The main reason for this is the lack of a deep keel, inducing drag and adding massive amounts of weight.

It's tough to make a comparison with popular cruisers like Lagoons (for example) because there are no monohulls that can match that kind of living accommodation. The nearest I've seen are a few large motorsailers, and so far I've seen no evidence at all that any boat can match the combination of accommodation and sailing performance of those cats.
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