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Old 14-05-2013, 04:57   #166
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What is a good accepted sailing speed on average?

6 knots 8 knots or 10 knots??
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Old 14-05-2013, 07:16   #167
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

Cheechako used to own a cat before his mono, so we must cut him some slack because he is obviously challenged (just kidding, Cheech).

I don't know what the question about a good accepted average speed means. That would depend on conditions, boat, etc. A fast boat would move better in light air.

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Old 14-05-2013, 07:50   #168
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

You have to keep all cats light.
Speed is proportional to weight.
Here is a good example of a dock cat. She will not go anywhere at any speed.
Great just anchored in one place for extended periods of time.
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Old 14-05-2013, 13:27   #169
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
See, this is the mistake I keep making... I assume people all know these basic things but here it shows again that only cat sailors know this but mono sailors are ready to voice their wrong opinion as fact and then we get the whole yes-no fight again over something where opinion doesn't count really.

I am a mono sailor, how come I know this?
The other day I saw a very experienced mono sailor (RTW multiple times) question why you would bother to put weighted lead keels on a cat, when a respected designer mentioned keels on cats. The designer was talking about LAR keels which are not weighted. You would think anyone that has even the remotests interest in sailing would know cats never have weighted keels (Ok smart ass's dont link me to a 1-1000000 example). But I am sure its these type of people who will also say how dangerous cats are etc.
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Old 14-05-2013, 13:30   #170
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

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Originally Posted by dirkdig View Post
What is a good accepted sailing speed on average?

6 knots 8 knots or 10 knots??
If you can truly average over 6K you will be at the pointy end of all cruising boats, mono or multi. From all reports I have seen cats and monos have roughly the same average cruising speeds by the way. Boats like s/v Jedi and 44c will be faster but they are in the minority.
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Old 14-05-2013, 15:02   #171
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
See, this is the mistake I keep making... I assume people all know these basic things but here it shows again that only cat sailors know this but mono sailors are ready to voice their wrong opinion as fact and then we get the whole yes-no fight again over something where opinion doesn't count really.

I am a mono sailor, how come I know this?
Maybe you pay more attention to cat's? Maybe your boat is fast enough to keep them in sight a bit longer.

And you're correct - much of what is said about cat's by monohull sailors is based on a complete lack of knowledge.
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Old 14-05-2013, 15:43   #172
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
The other day I saw a very experienced mono sailor (RTW multiple times) question why you would bother to put weighted lead keels on a cat, when a respected designer mentioned keels on cats. The designer was talking about LAR keels which are not weighted. You would think anyone that has even the remotests interest in sailing would know cats never have weighted keels (Ok smart ass's dont link me to a 1-1000000 example). But I am sure its these type of people who will also say how dangerous cats are etc.
Some designs are weighted for balance purposes, i.e. steel or lead ballast will be loaded in the front to counterbalance the engine weight in the back, but that is not a keel weight.
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Old 14-05-2013, 16:21   #173
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

Quote:
What is a good accepted sailing speed on average?

6 knots 8 knots or 10 knots??
It depends on wind speed, angle, size of boat, the load, how clean your bottom is, the crew, all sorts of things. I used to have a very heavy 37-foot wooden mono that sailed great and we made many shorter passages at seven knots or better, but we probably averaged 6 if you want a day-in, day-out all-condition average. I had a 32-foot cat that could do 12 knots under the right conditions, but we averaged more like 5-6 if you looked at a year of cruising. We beat an Apogee 50 running down the Chesapeake for a day with high winds. Very gradually overhauled and passed him, but if it had been to windward it would have been his race. My current 38-foot motorsailor is pretty close to 6 knots on average, over the course of a year, but we did the 235 miles or so from Block Island to Cape May at over 7 knots with a lot of wind. I did 85 miles in 10 hours once in a 30-foot mono. I cruised in company for several months down in the Caribbean with a 42-foot cat, and a 53-foot mono, and it was interesting how we never arrived in harbor more than a few hours from each other on short passages of a day or two. Sometimes we came in first on our 38-foot mono, sometimes the cat, sometimes the 53-footer, but there wasn't a lot of difference. There would be a much greater difference sailing from Panama to the Marquesas or across the Atlantic, but it would probably only be a few days at most.
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Old 14-05-2013, 17:51   #174
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

Well, there are traditionally three kinds of motion on the water; displacement, semi displacement (or semi planing), and Planing. By definition, if part of the hull leaves the water from the normal "sitting in the water" position, it is called planing. Thus a Sea Ray at 30mph with 1/2 to 2/3 of the hull out of the water is planing. That is... instead of being submerged to it's normal position, it's riding to some extent up on the water. If the hull is still somewhat supported on the water by displacement, then it may be semi-planing. If it is only supported on the water by it's displacement, then it's displacement. If someone put a yanmar 30HP diesel in a SeaRay, then it would be displacement boat, not because of hull shape, but because of the fact that at any speed it can attain, it is supported on the water purely by it's displacement.
Maybe I should have said "Semi-planing" in my original post. Evidently that is what a cat does.... really not sure...is a power cat at 40 mph driven by screws planing or semi planing...? I'm not even sure when a boat is up on foils if it fits any of the tradional 3 definitions....
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Old 14-05-2013, 18:01   #175
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
The other day I saw a very experienced mono sailor (RTW multiple times) question why you would bother to put weighted lead keels on a cat, when a respected designer mentioned keels on cats. The designer was talking about LAR keels which are not weighted. You would think anyone that has even the remotests interest in sailing would know cats never have weighted keels (Ok smart ass's dont link me to a 1-1000000 example). But I am sure its these type of people who will also say how dangerous cats are etc.
Well, yes and no.....not lead, but if you notice, cat sailors from the Americas Cup down to Hobies do use ballast... they run out on the windward ama to keep the boat upright. especially useful if the ama is out of the water! At displacement speeds maybe water ballast that pumped from the low to high side may have a good use!? Probably not practical and the weight could slow accelleration... My Lagoon 42 had weighted keels of a sort... the interior of the keels were the water tanks!
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Old 14-05-2013, 18:06   #176
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
And you're correct - much of what is said about cat's by monohull sailors is based on a complete lack of knowledge.
Sure. You might have noticed how they never give up... like pit bulls they keep hanging on, even if it just digs deeper holes etc..
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Old 14-05-2013, 18:20   #177
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
You have to keep all cats light.
Speed is proportional to weight.
Here is a good example of a dock cat. She will not go anywhere at any speed.
Great just anchored in one place for extended periods of time.
You gotta cut that out. You made me just spit up my bourbon and seven when I saw the dock cat.
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Old 14-05-2013, 20:32   #178
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Well, yes and no.....not lead, but if you notice, cat sailors from the Americas Cup down to Hobies do use ballast... they run out on the windward ama to keep the boat upright. especially useful if the ama is out of the water! At displacement speeds maybe water ballast that pumped from the low to high side may have a good use!? Probably not practical and the weight could slow accelleration... My Lagoon 42 had weighted keels of a sort... the interior of the keels were the water tanks!
Lar keels displace water and can also increase load carrying vs daggerboards to some extent although you example you have negated increased bouyancy by adding a water load.
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Old 14-05-2013, 20:39   #179
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I'm not even sure when a boat is up on foils if it fits any of the tradional 3 definitions....

A catamaran doesn't have foils - I think it's absurd they allow those in a "catamaran" race. It should be called a hydrofoil race. Any they confuse the public with regard to real catamarans. You know those things flip over almost every time they run them.
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Old 15-05-2013, 00:25   #180
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Re: What are the Slowest Cats?

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Some designs are weighted for balance purposes, i.e. steel or lead ballast will be loaded in the front to counterbalance the engine weight in the back, but that is not a keel weight.
Keep away from that terrible design.
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