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Old 15-01-2015, 06:24   #76
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Such a vessel would have however much more chance of broaching if the helmsman relaxed for a minute.

She did indicate 60knots definitely around 50 and seeing the storm clouds in one shot could have been variable.

.. it.
You are talking about two different things: That Leopard on huge waves and high winds going at 8K and a guy that said that was surfing on a cat reaching the max speed of 25K and that was not obviously on the same conditions. I asked in what conditions we had done that and with what cat that but he did not reply yet.

Even 33ft monohulls performance cruisers can in some conditions surf at that kind of speeds downwind:

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Old 15-01-2015, 06:33   #77
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Don't know what it looks like from the planet Pollux inhabits, but the video was pretty obviously (IMO) of a boat sailing DOWNWIND.


But of course in his unrelenting efforts to turn every single thread on this forum into a multihull bash....
What you contested was this statement:

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes, I agree, it will be less comfortable then a much bigger cat that costs several times more but then with the price of the cat it is possible to buy a much bigger mono than the cat and then comfort in what regards seamotion will be on the side of the monohull. Fact is that both types have advantages and disadvantages.
As you can see I am talking in general therms regarding comfort in a seaway and later said in what conditions a bigger monohull would be more comfortable then a smaller cat and said that in what regards comfort both boats have advantages and disadvantages.

You consider this bashing cats? Well I consider that your preference for cats makes you blind to the advantages and disadvantages each type has over the other. For you regarding cats there are only advantages
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Old 15-01-2015, 06:36   #78
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
to every non-biased average capacity thinking human, it is clear that in these sea conditions multi wins for comfort , safety etc against mono, even against super maxi mono.
Comfort? Perhaps. Safety? That's an absurdist claim. Yes, you will helm the boat differently and employ different strategies for controlling the boat, but each type of hull has it's own challenges with respect to managing it in heavy weather and this sort of sea state. To unequivocally claim that cats are uniformly safer in these conditions is simply wrong.
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Old 15-01-2015, 06:42   #79
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I had seen that video - absolutely bad ass sailing machine. I would love to be crew on that boat for a day just experiencing it pound through the water. Maybe we should both stop bashing boats and find more good video's of them sailing in weather.
I try not bashing any boat and I love performance cats and trimarans. That does not make me blind regarding to advantages and disadvantages they have over monohulls. They have been discussed extensively elsewhere.

If i had the money the type of boat I would chose would be a fast trimaran, unfortunately an offshore one costs several times more than a faster (but slightly slower) monohull. But that is just what I like more. Others would prefer monohulls or cats even if they had all the money available to chose the type of boat they want. The much bigger number of monohull big yachts indicates that when money is not a problem most choose a monohull. That obviously does not make them the best boat for all, just the more preferred type.
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Old 15-01-2015, 08:19   #80
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

We are getting into a little thread drift talking about sailing upwind, are we not? This thread concerns a great video of a relatively small cat, with relatively low bridgedeck clearance, apparently loaded for cruising that is comfortably handling huge following seas and high winds with minimal crew imput Interestingly, it is also the type of cat that many monohull enthusiasts like to denigrate by referring to as a 'condomaran'.

While it cannot begin to answer all questions concerning mono versus cat for extended cruising, it certainly gives some insight into: 1. the performance, comfort and safety of even relatively small production cats when sailing off the wind (important for those who plan largely trade-wind passages). 2. An excellent storm strategy in such a boat that provides comfort, safety and minimal crew imput/stress (if one has the sea room, of course).

Are there monohulls (particularly larger ones) that could perform as comfortably/safely while running before comparable winds and seas? Yes. Although it would almost certainly require a much larger boat with comparable BOA and very wide, flat sections aft combined with twin canted rudders. Think of Open 60 round the world racing yachts which are intended to sail offshore with the prevailing winds and often in heavy seas. They, of course, sacrifice some comfort (through increased pounding) when going to windward in order to provide increased stability/performance off the wind. If this sounds like many cruising catamarans, it is precisely because these hull forms attempt to achieve like results by mimicking, to some extent, a catamaran.

Catamarans do not tend to broach because the wide beam dramatically reduces heeling so that the twin rudders can continue to bite, keeping the aft end of the boat from slewing sideways when hit by a large wave off a stern quarter. When a typical monohull is hit by a wave off a stern quarter, the force causes the boat to heel - sometimes dramatically (especially if under bare poles). This, of course, causes a single centerline rudder to tilt up and lose much of its effectiveness at keeping the boat in line.

If, however, a monohull has comparable beam and flat sections aft, it will tend to heel less in these circumstances (although still more than the catamaran, which keeps its BOA over virtually the entire length of the boat) However, even with some heeling, at least the leeward rudder in a twin rudder design will continue to bite, decreasing the tendancy towards broaching.

Brad
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Old 15-01-2015, 11:25   #81
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It does not seem to me that the Leopard is sailing wit 50K wind. With 50K wind you have lots of spray flying around and we can see very little there.

Besides the question was this:

yeloya:
"...
With a catamaran I did surf for 2000 nm under autopilote in northern Atlantic, sometimes hitting 25 kts SOG, with my wine on table..
Would that be possible with a mono ? I tend to believe that with this kind of waves and speed, it would be very difficult to avoid a broach unless you helm very carefully at all time.."

He does not talk about 50K of wind but about surfing at 25K. Does not also say that he was surfing on a cat at 25K with this kind of waves. That seems a bit risky to me.

Maybe yeloya want to clarify better what kind of waves and wind he got when he was on the Atlantic surfing at 25K and in what boat?

Regarding wine on the table clearly it is not the case with that Leopard 39 that moves a lot.

I hope this will not turn on one of those threads about the seaworthiness of multihulls versus monohulls but what I have been observing in many races is that bad weather suits better monohulls that can go faster on those conditions while multihulls can go faster out of bad weather.
This was in early April 2012 beetween Bermuda and Azores mid way. Winds from aft quarter with my assymetrical spi, (no main) the boat was making between 8,5-10,5 kts SOG depending on the wind anywhere from 20 to 35 true. Surfing down the waves I did always 15-18 kts and once I hit the mark 24,7 kts. Very scary at the beginning but you get use to after couple of days. The boat was an Orana 43 from FP. What was amazing was the linear stability of the boat with this kind of speed under auto pilote.
My experience with monos are related to standard cruisers like Jeanneau , Benetteau kind of boats , certainly not Volvo 60 types of monos with central dagger bords, flat buttom, huge rudders, etc.

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 15-01-2015, 12:08   #82
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

Yeloya, I have no experience in sailing Open 60's or the like either! Just suggesting that based upon the design/dimensions, I suspect that it would be close if not equal to this under 40 foot cat in downwind stability/resistance to broaching in heavy conditions.

Brad
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Old 15-01-2015, 12:19   #83
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Yeloya, I have no experience in sailing Open 60's or the like either! Just suggesting that based upon the design/dimensions, I suspect that it would be close if not equal to this under 40 foot cat in downwind stability/resistance to broaching in heavy conditions.

Brad
Are you sure?





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Old 15-01-2015, 13:19   #84
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
What you contested was this statement:



As you can see I am talking in general therms regarding comfort in a seaway and later said in what conditions a bigger monohull would be more comfortable then a smaller cat and said that in what regards comfort both boats have advantages and disadvantages.

You consider this bashing cats? Well I consider that your preference for cats makes you blind to the advantages and disadvantages each type has over the other. For you regarding cats there are only advantages

And my statement before was that DDW mono's are not comfortable.

But yes, I'll admit - a 100 foot mono going to windward in 30 knots would very likely be more comfortable than a 25 foot cat. Happy now?

And regarding cats there are only advantages? Well, guess what - I've owned sailed, raced, cruised and lived on both. Even if I did say that, which I haven't, I can actually make a statement based on real life experience. How about you?

You enter almost every thread on multihulls, telling us how mono's are better, faster, cheaper etc etc etc etc. Have you even BEEN on a cat?

And once again, as usual, you've turned yet another thread into a mono vs cat argument.

And as usual, from a position of zero experience.
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Old 15-01-2015, 13:25   #85
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
We are getting into a little thread drift talking about sailing upwind, are we not? This thread concerns a great video of a relatively small cat, with relatively low bridgedeck clearance, apparently loaded for cruising that is comfortably handling huge following seas and high winds with minimal crew imput Interestingly, it is also the type of cat that many monohull enthusiasts like to denigrate by referring to as a 'condomaran'.

Brad
Exactly. This is basically a built-for-charter production boat, not some specialist racer.
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Old 15-01-2015, 13:26   #86
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

cool videos
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Old 15-01-2015, 13:27   #87
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

The crew on that little Leopard looked more comfortable than any of these.


Speaking of comfort:





Really doing it tough, these guys....
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Old 15-01-2015, 13:59   #88
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
The crew on that little Leopard looked more comfortable than any of these.


Speaking of comfort:





Really doing it tough, these guys....
Come on now, I don't want to come to Polux defense but you are comparing a Cat going downwind pulling a drogue doing 6-8 knots with one of these guys sailing to weather or on a reach at 3 times the speed, not something that should compared in my mid.
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Old 15-01-2015, 14:06   #89
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Come on now, I don't want to come to Polux defense but you are comparing a Cat going downwind pulling a drogue doing 6-8 knots with one of these guys sailing to weather or on a reach at 3 times the speed, not something that should compared in my mid.
Then why does he post the videos? They have absolutely nothing to do with the topic. There aren't any big waves in them. Even so, the crews looked like they'd drown any minute...

BTW the St Francis in the more recent vid was doing mostly 15-20 knots.
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Old 15-01-2015, 14:15   #90
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Re: Waves always look small on video...

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Then why does he post the videos? They have absolutely nothing to do with the topic. There aren't any big waves in them. Even so, the crews looked like they'd drown any minute...

BTW the St Francis in the more recent vid was doing mostly 15-20 knots.
He is just a passionate guy who spends too much time looking at vids and discussing sailing, well sometimes he is a bit of a bone head like the rest of us, LOL.
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