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Old 10-07-2016, 22:33   #106
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

From what I've been reading this morning, I don't believe modern day Cat's will flip as easily as what some people think. From what I can see it will take a lot more than an amature stuffing up with the sails to flip a boat, let alone to flip a boat in relatively calm water. Which is leading me towards thinking more that this boat that flipped in the Derwent has a less Production cruising aspect than most production cruising boats. I'd really like to hear from the owners (new owners) as to what they think of their 'stuff up' and how this actually happened.

And as I said before, the fact that this vessel with it's previously experienced owner was able to break around Australia records is not relevant. It clearly indicates the skill of it's former owner and his/her knowledge of the boat, but it's really got nothing to do with the vessel's stability.

So, for me, if I ever win Tatt's, a Cat is still where my favourite designe would probably be.

Most multihulls will not capsize even under intense conditions. A catamaran in extreme conditions will round into the wind, much like a monohull. Thereby in actuality it is not possible for a cruising catamaran to capsize from extreme wind conditions. Any extreme stress to the rig can be easily avoided by simply reefing and slowing down. Catamarans offer a very safe margin for secure offshore family sailing and performance.

Catamaran Myths Busted

"This is generally a very contentious and little understood subject when multihull seaworthiness is discussed, and is probably the biggest fear that inexperienced sailors have about this type of vessel. And while it is true that certain multihulls have capsized, it is clear from the above that there are many different types of multihull, and indeed there are different ways in which they can capsize. I will endeavour to show that by careful analysis, and a with a real understanding of the factors that contribute to capsize vulnerability, it is possible to design a multihull that is extremely difficult to capsize, and one that is very safe in all conditions. (Bearing in mind that there may be a wave out there that will overwhelm any vessel)."

Considerations for Seaworthiness

and a really good discussion of Cat stability

Catamaran Stability | James Wharram Designs

"This is theoretically possible, and has happened in very rare heavy-weather situations when EVERY vessel is in distress. It takes very high winds, too much sail (see reefing, above), and large breaking waves to flip a modern cruising cat or tri. "
Multihulls vs. Monohulls | Advantages | Catamarans & Trimarans | West Coast Multihulls
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Old 10-07-2016, 22:35   #107
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I live in Melbourne, We get the same winds and weather Tassie gets, It actually comes up from the south over Tassie,
Last week we had 120 KPH winds gusts, with a constant around 80 KPH,
I know this because I cant go skiing, The Lifts get shut down,

Port Phillip Bay, Western Port Bay and Bass Straight can go from a Dead Flat Mill Pond to a very turbulent Maelstrom in minutes, with winds over 100 KPH,
Being further south at the top of the Southern Ocean, Its only 400 miles or so,
I would assume the winds at the bottom of Tassie would be a lot stronger than in Melbourne,
Very Strong Gusty winds are a part of life here, Tassie gets the same winds,
So flipping a boat, any boat would be exceptionally easy if you werent prepared for it,
Too much sail up, on the wrong angle, bang, Your over,
Even experienced sailors can get caught out in very strong wind gusts,

This coming Wednesday, If your in Tassie or Victoria, Make sure your in a safe spot, Because its on its way, Including snow down to 300 metres, And very high winds,

Na, our wind from Tasmania is from Hodgeman a Lib, where as your Vic wind is from Andrews from the AlP
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Old 10-07-2016, 22:47   #108
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
From what I've been reading this morning, I don't believe modern day Cat's will flip as easily as what some people think. From what I can see it will take a lot more than an amature stuffing up with the sails to flip a boat, let alone to flip a boat in relatively calm water. Which is leading me towards thinking more that this boat that flipped in the Derwent has a less Production cruising aspect than most production cruising boats.
It's been said more than once, this was not a production cruising boat.
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Old 10-07-2016, 23:02   #109
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
It was at about this point in the thread about the loss of the Anna between Niue and Tonga a while back, that Evans Starzinger suggested the use of a "fuse", that the attachment for the clew to the outhaul be made to give way at a pre-determined wind strength. No reason to lose the whole rig. Seemed like a good concept to me. Easy to rig and easy to replace.

Ann
It could be done, quite easily and quite cheaply too. A spectra "fuse" on the mainsheet. And it doesn't need to completely dump the main, it could just allow a predetermined amount of release which would in most cases avert a capsize.

But a commonsense approach to sailing is even easier.
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Old 10-07-2016, 23:44   #110
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
It could be done, quite easily and quite cheaply too. A spectra "fuse" on the mainsheet. And it doesn't need to completely dump the main, it could just allow a predetermined amount of release which would in most cases avert a capsize.

But a commonsense approach to sailing is even easier.
A commonsense approach to sailing is by far, the better, imho. However, if you really wanted a cat, but had little experience sailing one, the concept just might give you a sense of lowering the risk of being overturned.

Please understand, I truly agree with you that common sense is a far better approach. ......don't know how many people that run out and buy their first (gigantic to me) 45 ft. cat have the common sense or the seamanship sense that longer term sailors acquire. --But, that's a different issue.


Cheers, guys,

Ann
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Old 11-07-2016, 00:05   #111
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

If this rather rambling discussion is actually about the possibility of "production" cats flipping, then it is seriously misguided.

Big Wave Rider was a custom boat built by Bruce for a purpose. It is light, fast and the rigging is strong, so that it is capable of achieving speeds of 20kn+. It is pretty much as far from a custom boat as you can get. It sat in Mooloolaba and then on the hard at boatworks for well over a year, as all potential buyers understood this issue. The final buyer understood this but wanted a boat in this mould and "supposedly" understood the issues. Apparently he sailed too close to the edge and flipped it. He may well have understood the risks and took them anyway. That's the way it goes and everyone got away and all are safe.

There are many boats in this mould. The Tag 60 that sat near Big Wave Rider for a time is so capable of flipping that it has level sensors built in to automatically spill air as and when necessary. Leaving aside that it has a very experienced skipper it would not surprise me to wake up one day and see that this boat had flipped. There are many examples of boats of this type and several examples of this type of boat that have flipped.


"Production" boats are completely different in that the rig is designed to be sacrificial. I can think of many examples of rigs that have come down due to too much sail and too high a wind, but I cannot think of any examples of such a boat flipping for this reason. (no doubt I will be corrected by somebody).

To correlate the performance of Big Wave Rider with a production boat and make definitive statements about production cats is simply specious nonsense.
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Old 11-07-2016, 00:08   #112
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

Quote:
Which is leading me towards thinking more that this boat that flipped in the Derwent has a less Production cruising aspect than most production cruising boats.
RC, stop and think about what you just said! This boat is a record-holding race boat, a vessel proven to be faster in open ocean conditions that virtually all its contemporaries. It is a long way from a typical cruising cat.

As a rough simile, compare a family daysailing dinghy like the O'Day Osprey I used to own and a 505, or a 49er or a Moth. They are all small dinghies, crewed by one of two people. I never got the rail under in the Osprey, capsizes are common in 505s, 49ers require skilled and athletic crews to avoid capsize and a foiling Moth won't stay upright at all without an athletic and skilled crew (of one). They are simply different craft, and the BWR is similarly a different craft than a Lagoon (etc). Of course they are different in the requirements of skill to sail them!

And for one final time, you keep harping on the fact that BWR capsized in a mere river. Don't you understand that the river environment, especially one with a large and steep mountain adjacent, is much more subject to strong and unpredictable gusts than the open ocean? And that coming out from a relatively protected area, rounding a prominent point with steep cliffs... this is so very likely to provide big alterations in wind velocity and direction... the kind of situation that can indeed cause a cat to capsize if over canvased and with a crew lacking in experience and skills.

As we understand the situation, the owner, himself new to the boat, had two really inexperienced folks with him as crew. He made a mistake in selecting the sail plan for the conditions. He paid the price. If he had been in a more typical cruising cat, it is unlikely that the same response to a big gust would have occurred... but that is conjecture for this non-cat experienced sailor.

Bottom line is that IMO your extrapolations from BWR to cruising cats is not valid.

Jim

Edit: the near simultaneous post above seems to agree...
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:09   #113
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

^^^ And there we have it. Common sense.
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:24   #114
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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^^^ And there we have it. Common sense.
Both common sense answers - was it really that hard to see
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:34   #115
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
If this rather rambling discussion is actually about the possibility of "production" cats flipping, then it is seriously misguided.

Big Wave Rider was a custom boat built by Bruce for a purpose. It is light, fast and the rigging is strong, so that it is capable of achieving speeds of 20kn+. It is pretty much as far from a custom boat as you can get. It sat in Mooloolaba and then on the hard at boatworks for well over a year, as all potential buyers understood this issue. The final buyer understood this but wanted a boat in this mould and "supposedly" understood the issues. Apparently he sailed too close to the edge and flipped it. He may well have understood the risks and took them anyway. That's the way it goes and everyone got away and all are safe.

There are many boats in this mould. The Tag 60 that sat near Big Wave Rider for a time is so capable of flipping that it has level sensors built in to automatically spill air as and when necessary. Leaving aside that it has a very experienced skipper it would not surprise me to wake up one day and see that this boat had flipped. There are many examples of boats of this type and several examples of this type of boat that have flipped.


"Production" boats are completely different in that the rig is designed to be sacrificial. I can think of many examples of rigs that have come down due to too much sail and too high a wind, but I cannot think of any examples of such a boat flipping for this reason. (no doubt I will be corrected by somebody).

To correlate the performance of Big Wave Rider with a production boat and make definitive statements about production cats is simply specious nonsense.
Thank you CWJohm, for explaining this. The difficulty I had is that few were attempting to explain the type of boat it was. IN their zealousness to protect their precious cat reputations, with almost evangelistic zeal, questions are met with derision and anger.

As I knew that Cruising Cat's don't flip so easily I was attempting to work out why this particular one flipped as it did in conditions that from what are reported did not seem to warrant it. I was not in any way 'correlating the performance of BWR with production boats', but simply trying to understand something in a social forum where asking questions about CAT's get's one virtually castrated. As you can see from the following statement I made, I was working it out.

"Which is leading me towards thinking more that this boat that flipped in the Derwent has a less Production cruising aspect than most production cruising boats."'

You too have said that 'in production boats, the rig is designed to be sacrificial', Something that I have read too. But as you can see from this forum there are those who refuse to acknowledge that.

So, what I am now understanding and which helps answer my question as to why it flipped, it is a specially designed custom Cat, not like the many production boats in use around the world. It requires special consideration when sailing, experience and a knowledge of its characteristics. NOT like the many production boats that would not have flipped in those conditions.
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:42   #116
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

If you really think the rigs on production boats are sacrificial, check out the wire size on any production boat you like, then find out what it's breaking strain is. then compare that to the boat's displacement. Then halve it, as that is the force required to lift a hull.


I seriously doubt any boat will in reality have a sacrificial rig. Even your cat hating buddy mr slug admitted this.
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:08   #117
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing



OK.. This spat is losing objectivity of the discussion. If it continues, CF will close the thread.
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Old 11-07-2016, 04:08   #118
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
And easy to end up dead when it lets go.

A sheet-release system needs an element of control.
But Evans suggestion doesn't involve sheet or boom release. If the "fuse" is at the clew/outhaul, all that will happen is that the foot of the main will blow out downwind.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:17   #119
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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If you really think the rigs on production boats are sacrificial, check out the wire size on any production boat you like, then find out what it's breaking strain is. then compare that to the boat's displacement. Then halve it, as that is the force required to lift a hull.


I seriously doubt any boat will in reality have a sacrificial rig. Even your cat hating buddy mr slug admitted this.
The wire size is irrelevant and is not the weakest point. You have the wire attachments to the tension adjusters. You have the attachment to the hulls, You have the attachment to the mast. You have the sails. You have the mainsheet. You have the blocks. You have the sheet locks. All of these can fail.

The reality is that there are many examples of rig failures in production cats as a result of too much sail in high winds. Sails blow out. Blocks blow out. Sheets strip. Mast attachments fail.

If you discard pitchpolling, then there are no examples that I have heard of flipping due to high winds alone in production cats (NB I do not regard a Chris White Atlantic as a production cat).
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:23   #120
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Warning some may find this disturbing

That's a long way different to saying their rigs are designed to act as fuses. I've never seen it discussed in any literature for these production cats, on their websites or handouts or heard it discussed at the boat shows by the manufacturers. Not mentioned in reviews.

They're just not.

I'll ask at the Sydney Boat Show at the end of the month 😬


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