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Old 04-07-2016, 18:40   #76
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
No No Rustic. Thats a little unfair.

Some of "US" Cat people are very sensitive.

But not all.

The realists face the facts and try and learn from these regular capsizes.

Not bury their heads in the sand and demand a cover up.

I, like you, do not understand this sensitive , defensive, mindset.


Now what about Guns on Cats
Thank you Seaslug - I know 'most' cat owners are very reasonable, friendly and helpful with answers. I've not met a lot locally, doesn't seem to be a lot around. But in Melbourne recently I had a good long 'friendly' chat with one guy. After looking around his boat and hearing him talk about it, I was sold. Honestly wish I had the money and I might get my wife out sailing more often.

Re gun's on a cat. I got to find a picture of my Midnight Marina when I was in the police force and our gun's amnesty was in place back in the 90's. We mounted for fun a large gatling gun on the front of our police cat.
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Old 04-07-2016, 20:03   #77
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
No No Rustic. Thats a little unfair.

Some of "US" Cat people are very sensitive.

But not all.

The realists face the facts and try and learn from these regular capsizes.

Not bury their heads in the sand and demand a cover up.

I, like you, do not understand this sensitive , defensive, mindset.


Now what about Guns on Cats
I understand why you are deeply interested in Capsizes if you own a Seawind 24, great little boat but can go over pretty easily. Those who own/have owned a larger more stable vessel don't have the same sensitivity as we have some factual experience to interpret what is going on.
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Old 04-07-2016, 21:20   #78
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I'm familiar with the Derwent. I did my marine training down there and worked down there for many years.

If the Derwent has been the worst winds you have experienced in what I know is your many years of sailing experience, then sorry, I'm lost for words.
Why are you lost for words? This seems like a pretty simple situation: in nearly 50 years of sailing, and 30 years of cruising full time, those mid 80s gusting high 90s are the strongest winds we have encountered. They were on the Derwent, and in both cases were in a squash zone between an intense high and a deep low in the Southern ocean. The next strongest, and the strongest that we were actually sailing in was a huge thunderstorm offshore from the Clarence river where the initial surge was around 80 knots and maintained over 60 for a couple of hours. Then there was a 60 knotter while in Port Davey a couple of years ago. Beyond that, we were in a small cyclone at Raoul Island with sustained 60 knots, and more numerous storms and gales at sea in various places with 50 knots or so. I did not enjoy any of those circumstances.

Are you saying that we should have encountered worse winds? Or that we should have avoided those winds? Or that I am somehow mistaken? What has caused this unprecedented loss of words, RC?

REmember, the reason that I posted our experience was to illustrate that very strong gusts can be present on the Derwent, and that this might mitigate the criticism of the operators of the cat in question, and the instance of their being capsized by a gust on a mere river.

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Old 04-07-2016, 21:44   #79
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Gee you Cat people really are sensative arn't you glad I didn't include a comment about anchors for cats
My anchor failed in a sudden storm and put my Cat on the rocks,
It also bent the anchor 30 degrees, So it was trying,
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:42   #80
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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My anchor failed in a sudden storm and put my Cat on the rocks,
It also bent the anchor 30 degrees, So it was trying,
Thanks for that Mr B, I've out my foot in it enough today, so I might just leave it at that.
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:45   #81
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Why are you lost for words? This seems like a pretty simple situation: in nearly 50 years of sailing, and 30 years of cruising full time, those mid 80s gusting high 90s are the strongest winds we have encountered. They were on the Derwent, and in both cases were in a squash zone between an intense high and a deep low in the Southern ocean. The next strongest, and the strongest that we were actually sailing in was a huge thunderstorm offshore from the Clarence river where the initial surge was around 80 knots and maintained over 60 for a couple of hours. Then there was a 60 knotter while in Port Davey a couple of years ago. Beyond that, we were in a small cyclone at Raoul Island with sustained 60 knots, and more numerous storms and gales at sea in various places with 50 knots or so. I did not enjoy any of those circumstances.

Are you saying that we should have encountered worse winds? Or that we should have avoided those winds? Or that I am somehow mistaken? What has caused this unprecedented loss of words, RC?

REmember, the reason that I posted our experience was to illustrate that very strong gusts can be present on the Derwent, and that this might mitigate the criticism of the operators of the cat in question, and the instance of their being capsized by a gust on a mere river.

Jim
I simply did not realise that our Derwent River was that high stakes that a couple with your experience would count it as the highest winds you have encountered. That's it. Nothing sinister
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:51   #82
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Thanks for that Mr B, I've out my foot in it enough today, so I might just leave it at that.
Got to have Humour Mate, Some people get too serious with life,
I thought you would get a laugh out of it, I did,
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:54   #83
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Got to have Humour Mate, Some people get too serious with life,
I thought you would get a laugh out of it, I did,
yes, me too
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Old 10-07-2016, 14:38   #84
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Just to be clear, as I'm already suspecting my questioning is raising the eye brows of some cat lovers.

I really like Cats. If I had the money, I'd have one. I simply can't afford one. I also see the statistics and know they are one hell of a safe vessel compared numerically to mono's.

I'm really questioning this particular vessel. As it seems odd to me that it so easily flipped through simply having too much sail out when surprised by a squall.
You keep saying it was easily flipped. But do you know how strong the wind it encountered was?
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Old 10-07-2016, 15:23   #85
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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You keep saying it was easily flipped. But do you know how strong the wind it encountered was?
I had to read the entire thread to recall what this was about. I'm surprised your asking that question as you have been posting throughout the discussion. A number responded with the wind conditions with 20 - 30 knotts and Snowpetrol got the gusting as reaching 40 knotts.

And NO, I don't keep 'saying it was easily flipped'. I was asking the question given others seemed to be suggesting it was easily flipped. Some are suggesting it was easily flipped because of the 'high' winds? 20-30 knotts with gusts to 40?

My understanding from a number of posters who own Cats is that your more likely to loose your rig in big winds if you have to much sail out than to flip. That is what makes Cat's so inherently safe. So, If this turn over happened out in the Ocean with big waves and big winds I could understand it. But it has happened in relatively flat seas, in a river, with not significantly big winds (20-30 / 40).

Some have suggested it was an inexperienced crew that left too much sail out. (others disputed they are inexperienced). But, if a big cat like this is flipped 'easily' by an inexperienced crew, then does not that make big Cat's like this really only for experienced sailors?

Or, is it more likely, something to do with the design of the boat?
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Old 10-07-2016, 15:45   #86
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

Maybe re-read your own posts? You do keep saying it was easily flipped. You said it first, so don't try to suggest you're only quoting others, and you've said it several times.


And we still do not know the actual wind strength the boat encountered. But for 40 knot gusts, any idiot would know the boat needed to be deep reefed.


The fact it was "only" a river? So what? Mono's have been known to sink in marina pens in dead calms. Does this mean they are unsafe?
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Old 10-07-2016, 16:22   #87
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

Please hang on a moment, guys,

In a sense, I think what we're dealing with here is the "wind gusts may be up to 40% stronger than the averages given here" phenomenon. If you have a light, fast boat,
and suddenly get a 40% stronger puff, you can be hard pressed to (in the cat) come up to slow down the boat in time to keep it from flipping. I think the fact that the rig was intact after the overturning speaks loudly to the high quality of the vessel and rig.

My understanding is that this event occurred as the cat was coming out from behind the wind protection of Kangaroo Point. He couldn't come up with the cliff in the way as the wind bent around the point.

The force on the boat goes up (roughly) as the square of the velocity, and once the wind got under the hull, it didn't have a chance.

i suspect that a strong, light, fast monohull might well have been flattened if it were there at the time.

So this is an issue about dealing with strong wind puffs, and not an issue of inherent safety between cats and monos.

Ann
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Old 10-07-2016, 16:30   #88
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

And yet this unsafe boat set a solo round australia record.

What Ann said is a reasonable assesment in MHO
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Old 10-07-2016, 16:34   #89
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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And yet this unsafe boat set a solo round australia record.
Clearly he must have been lucky and never had winds over 20k
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Old 10-07-2016, 17:16   #90
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Re: Warning some may find this disturbing

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Please hang on a moment, guys,

In a sense, I think what we're dealing with here is the "wind gusts may be up to 40% stronger than the averages given here" phenomenon. If you have a light, fast boat,
and suddenly get a 40% stronger puff, you can be hard pressed to (in the cat) come up to slow down the boat in time to keep it from flipping. I think the fact that the rig was intact after the overturning speaks loudly to the high quality of the vessel and rig.

My understanding is that this event occurred as the cat was coming out from behind the wind protection of Kangaroo Point. He couldn't come up with the cliff in the way as the wind bent around the point.

The force on the boat goes up (roughly) as the square of the velocity, and once the wind got under the hull, it didn't have a chance.

i suspect that a strong, light, fast monohull might well have been flattened if it were there at the time.

So this is an issue about dealing with strong wind puffs, and not an issue of inherent safety between cats and monos.

Ann
The problem is, that even if there were 40% stronger than the averages, on this particular day, that was not recorded as Snowpetrol posted. Although I guess it could have occured in an area not able to be recorded and they were hit with 80 knotts all of a sudden

And from what I have read in other threads in discussions about safety of Cat's, the rig 'should' give way long before it flips. So, it doesn't speak highly of the build if in fact that's true.

Has anyone actually heard from the owners as to how this happened? That would be interesting to hear.
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