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Old 24-01-2008, 18:29   #1
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Used Catamarans under $250K

In my on-going search for a used catamaran that would fit into my budget, I would like to ask the forum how they would compare the following catamarans:

Wauquiez Kronos 45
St. Francis 43 & 44
Privilege 39 & 43
Lagoon 38 & 42
Endeavour Manta 40
Leopard 38
PDQ 36

My goal is to visit some of the lesser-traveled islands in the South Pacific on an open-ended cruise, so the boat must be capable of comfortably doing long ocean passages with a short-handed (read 2) crew.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 24-01-2008, 18:38   #2
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Charter Yacht Brokerage (Ft. Lauderdale, FL)

I hope this link works, let me know if it doesn't. This is a bit over your budget at 285K but comes close and looks pretty nice and solid.. Hope this helps and good luck with your search..
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Old 24-01-2008, 20:03   #3
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I think this thread or a version of it was done mid last year. Not complaining though as this is my "sweet" spot as well.

$200-$250k used Lagoon 38 - That's me right there...

Charter Yacht Brokerage (Ft. Lauderdale, FL)=
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Old 25-01-2008, 08:21   #4
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I can personally endorse the Manta 40 esp. for shorthanded sailing. All lines lead back to a 2 spd elec. winch at the helm. Full roach/full batten main with a hard top bimini for easy access, self tacking camber spar jib for easy wing on wing sailing and tacking. I regularly fly the asym. spinnaker for some very pleasant long distance days at 8-10 knots in moderate winds. It has a flat deck with rub rails all the way around, something I would not be with out. Having a beefey radar/bimini arch in the back and steps to the waterline make dingy access a breeze. Also has good headroom at the helm and you can see all four corners from there as well. Very well built, I looked at several new boats whose trim was already separating and generally a lack of quality whereas my 11 yr old Manta is still tight. The customer service even with an old 2nd owner boat has been exceptional. You're not going to find a better value for your money.
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Old 25-01-2008, 09:14   #5
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I've had two of those boats, the PDQ 36 and now have the St Francis 44 and been aboard all of them. If you want to do long ocean passages of more than a week or so I'd rule out the PDQ 36, only because it has slender hulls 11 or 12 to 1 without much load carry capacity. I have a 350 lb friend and when he stepped onto my PDQ 36 the back transom sank at least an inch. Odd, when he stepped aboard all of the old salts onboard did the exact same thing and quickly glanced down at the waterline! For doing a circumnavigation of the Caribbean it would be absolutely fine. Its a great boat, extremely simply to operate, but it simply wasn't designed for transpacific passages.
If I were doing a circumnavigation of the caribbean though I would first choose the PDQ 36 as it's so easy to keep.

By contrast the St Francis is a boat that's used routinely for circumnavigations, especially considering their initial delivery on the maiden voyage is usually 20+ days at sea from South Africa to the Caribbean or Med crossing the atlantic the long way. It's a workman like boat with simpler water based enamel finishes and coatings. Extremely structurally strong. Engines are yanmar, arguable the best out there. Of the boats you've listed it would be one of the best sailors also with hull length/hull beam ratios of 11 to 1 (unlike the PDQ though it has the length to carry the weight you would need for a transpacific). Call it a good 12 knot boat in trade winds of 18-20 knots. It would also have the most accomodations with a 10 by 14 ft saloon area and very nice forward cabins. For the older models (Mk I) the clearance underneath is probably around 24 inches which isn't fantastic by modern standards but travelling with the trades it won't be an issue. Head clearance aft in the hulls is around 6 ft midships, 5' 10 aft and 6' 2" in the forward cabins. In the settee area it's around 6'3 or 6'4". I'm six ft in dress shoes and find it fine everywhere. Of the boats you've listed (or any catamaran really) it also has one of the bigger galleys with 8 ft of counter space. It's also one of the very few boats that has two sitz baths up forward. Very nice for kids and honestly you can fit into it if you don't mind tucking your feet up a bit. It also has one of the highest sail area/displacement of any catamaran. Last it's one of the few boats with engines amidships. Great for balance and sailing ability.

The privilege 39 and 43 are also routinely used boats for circumnavigation. More luxurious finish throughout. It's a heavier boat, very solidly built, some consider it more of a 8-9 knot boat in trade winds. Lot's of carrying capacity with wider hulls.
Of the boats you've listed it's probably one of unquestioned build quality and strength with probably the nicest interior. Older models tend to have the saloon windows where it's difficult to see out and contribute to a lot of solar gain (heat).

The older lagoon 42 (american designed and built) was a very nice boat. Seemed like it would be a good performer. Not much room however for a 42 ft boat in modern standards.

I would think any of the boats you listed under 40 ft except for the privilege would be a little hard pressed to do a transpacific passage. There's a huge difference between a transpacific and transatlantic by the way.
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Old 25-01-2008, 10:43   #6
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ditto schoonerdog (note: I have no direct knowledge of the Kronos)

If you can get a Priv 43 in good shape for that money, go for it.

Good luck!

Dave
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Old 25-01-2008, 11:34   #7
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In that price range you could pick up a Leopard 42/Moorings 4200 coming out of charter. It is a much better sailing boat then the Leopard 38. You could even get into a Leopard 45/Moorings 4500 from 98 to 01 around 250,000. There are a glut of them on the market in the Caribbean.
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Old 25-01-2008, 13:27   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orsailor View Post
In my on-going search for a used catamaran that would fit into my budget, I would like to ask the forum how they would compare the following catamarans:

Wauquiez Kronos 45
St. Francis 43 & 44
Privilege 39 & 43
Lagoon 38 & 42
Endeavour Manta 40
Leopard 38
PDQ 36

My goal is to visit some of the lesser-traveled islands in the South Pacific on an open-ended cruise, so the boat must be capable of comfortably doing long ocean passages with a short-handed (read 2) crew.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Orsailor!

I find myself in a similar situation and with the plan of going long-term cruising in the fast lane, single or double-handed.

I have a problem with your list. In my opinion all the cats on your list have been designed mainly for the charter /family market. With your and my ideas, what the hell are we to use 4 double berths for? - storage? I am looking for a cat with 2 double berths, full stop! And there are not many cats like that out there, I've been looking.

Furthermore, the speed potential of all these cats mentioned is not the best.

That said, have you considered an Outremer or one of the Lerouge designs like the Azuli?

Or have a look at this one:
Sailornet (Rome, Italy)&
Different and smaller but might appeal to you.

There are also two 47' - 50' older Crowthers on the market, both lying in Malaysia - both on Yachtworld.

Good hunting, may you not eagerly chase the same cat I'm after!
Roger
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Old 25-01-2008, 14:13   #9
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Roger, Outremers are amazing boats which certainly put the emphasis on performance and offshore capability. Not coincidentally, they are also very solidly built, have well-engineered daggerboards, excellent bridgedeck clearance and keep the weight out of the ends. My only question is whether you would be able to acquire one in the proposed price range. I also question the layout of the early boats which had no access from the bridgedeck accomodation to the hulls.

Eric Lerouge certainly designed some fine catamarans - in fact, the Solaris Sunstar 36 is one of his designs that is generally available for significantly less than 200 g's. They were solidly constructed - perhaps too solidly, as Lerouge is purported to have complained about the increase in weight (as compared to his original design specs )that resulted when Solaris built them to the Lloyd's offshore standards of the time. They did, however, lengthen the boat from (I believe) 33 to 36 feet to compensate.

Anyway, offshore capable, solid construction, good bridgedeck clearance, good bridgedeck shape (virtually all curves). The layout, as I recall, was decidedly not intended for charter - for example, only one head compartment. However, the performance is also not up to the standard of Outremers - think more in terms of the Leopard 38 but with much less susceptibility to bridgedeck pounding.

As to there being inadequate space in a cat under 40 for a trans-pac, I guess it depends on how you want to equip your boat. A watermaker (plus some reliable method of catching rainwater off the bimini as a back-up) reduces dramatically the required tankage/weight required for storage of your major essential. And you should certainly be able to store and carry the weight of clothes and food for two for the same distance and time. No, you can't/shouldn't overload the boat with microwaves, televisions, dvd's, air-conditioning, folding bikes, etc., etc. - but it sounds as if that is not your intention if you are considering an Outremer.

I guess my point is that, as if oftimes said about catamarans, you can have (and can only have) two of the following three attributes: space, performance, reasonable price.

Brad
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Old 25-01-2008, 14:50   #10
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I looked at Outremer for my family as well. Extremely fast boats. No storage lockers in the hulls or cabins (storage is extremely important), 25 gallon capacity for the water tanks for a 43 ft boat....it would seem taking one of these out for a transpacific would be a bit like taking a ferrari camping. Yes, you can suppliment with water maker (but do you really only want 25 gallons of water if it fails?), and carry a bunch of jerry jugs and I guess you could get lots of plastic storage bins to keep food, clothes, books, you know, camp. As to speed, ok, an outremer will go faster than a st francis, but the St Francis can easily sail in the upper teens, so is it really worth that much of a trade off for comfort vs speed?
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Old 26-01-2008, 08:20   #11
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Why not get a cold molded built catamaran?
They are fast and light. Which allows more storage capasity.
Waarship does a great job. and they have a massive interior.
There are several american designers that use this construction technic.
Can anyone name some other cold molded cat builders.
Does anyone have cold molded cat for sale?
I am shopping in this direction.

Tom Indy
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Old 26-01-2008, 08:38   #12
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No one on this board will be surprised when I wholeheartedly agree with fareweather about the Manta. The only problem you will have involves the fact that they are holding their value so well that you might have a problem finding one in the $250,000 range. But it would be well worth the wait to get one, because they are solidly built and very well designed for long term cruising. They are not charter boats, but rather full time liveaboard vessels. We are in our fifth year of cruising on ours, and we haven't been disappointed yet. In fact, 6 Manta owners got together last night in St. Maarten, and one of them was Hull #2. As I said, they hold up well....
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Old 26-01-2008, 09:33   #13
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Originally Posted by multihullsailor6 View Post
Or have a look at this one:
Sailornet (Rome, Italy)&Different and smaller but might appeal to you.
Wouldn't it be difficult to go cruising in a boat without a enclosed salon / living area? It just doesn't seem to have the living area or storage space required for a long term live aboard. It appears to be designed as a very light and fast daysailor with a couple of bunks tossed in for good measure. I don't think anyone would do long ocean passages on this boat.
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Old 26-01-2008, 10:18   #14
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Here are 2 MANTA 40 just below 250k.

YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale
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Old 26-01-2008, 12:54   #15
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I guess my point is that, as if oftimes said about catamarans, you can have (and can only have) two of the following three attributes: space, performance, reasonable price.
I think that with the advances made in boatbuilding materials, building techniques and equipment you can actually combine all three of the above attributes, especially when considering a 40'ish cat for only two crew.

Another option for a suitable boat would be a Harryproa Visionarry, again different and not everybody's taste, but could well fit the budget and fit the crew size combined with low maintenance.
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