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Old 08-09-2018, 13:07   #46
rom
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
Curious which one? And why you think so? I mostly use the numbers I pull from multihulldynamics (although sailboatdata does provide much of the same information too), I certainly haven't been calculating anything. But being an engineer, a challenge like that makes me want to go learn more....

How about googling the specs (light disp vs sail area) of the 3 boats you listed ?



Anyway, I agree with you, it's hard to get objective information ... especially from a forum, and from the internet in general. At the very least one should have a look at the builder's specs for every boat he's interested in.



Peregrine1983, are you making any progress ? do you have a short list of cats you like ?
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Old 08-09-2018, 13:52   #47
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by rom View Post
How about googling the specs (light disp vs sail area) of the 3 boats you listed ?



Anyway, I agree with you, it's hard to get objective information ... especially from a forum, and from the internet in general. At the very least one should have a look at the builder's specs for every boat he's interested in.



Peregrine1983, are you making any progress ? do you have a short list of cats you like ?
Casamance -- 18,000 pounds, 1060sf sail area -> 24.69 SA/D
Lagoon 440 -- 29,800 pounds, 1071sf sail area -> 17.84 SA/D
Lagoon 450 -- 44,800 pounds, 1442sf sail area -> 18.29 SA/D
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:08   #48
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
Casamance -- 18,000 pounds, 1060sf sail area -> 24.69 SA/D
Lagoon 440 -- 29,800 pounds, 1071sf sail area -> 17.84 SA/D
Lagoon 450 -- 44,800 pounds, 1442sf sail area -> 18.29 SA/D

OK, I don't know where you got those numbers from ? Shouldn't we use light disp & standard sail area ?



I am not sure about the Casamance, I found 8t & 90sqm sail area, pretty sure about the other 2, 12.15t & 116sqm for the L440, 16.9t & 129sqm for the L450F. Converted to pounds (lb=t*2204.6), and then used formula SA/((D/64)^(2/3))



Casamance -- 17637 pounds, 969sf sail area -> 22.9 SA/D
Lagoon 440 -- 26786 pounds, 1249sf sail area -> 22.3 SA/D
Lagoon 450 -- 37258 pounds, 1389sf sail area -> 19.9 SA/D (flybridge version)



Which doesn't look so bad for the lagoons now.



I would like to point out that those numbers may be of interest when comparing boats of the same length, but since the OP is interested in ocean crossing, I would advise once again the longest boat that fits the budget. Longer usually means more speed, comfort & safety.


BTW, the bahia 46 I suggesting in my first post:

Bahia 46 -- 21385 pounds, 1324 sf sail area -> 27.5 SA/D !
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:27   #49
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by rom View Post
OK, I don't know where you got those numbers from ? Shouldn't we use light disp & standard sail area ?



I am not sure about the Casamance, I found 8t & 90sqm sail area, pretty sure about the other 2, 12.15t & 116sqm for the L440, 16.9t & 129sqm for the L450F. Converted to pounds (lb=t*2204.6), and then used formula SA/((D/64)^(2/3))



Casamance -- 17637 pounds, 969sf sail area -> 22.9 SA/D
Lagoon 440 -- 26786 pounds, 1249sf sail area -> 22.3 SA/D
Lagoon 450 -- 37258 pounds, 1389sf sail area -> 19.9 SA/D (flybridge version)



Which doesn't look so bad for the lagoons now.



I would like to point out that those numbers may be of interest when comparing boats of the same length, but since the OP is interested in ocean crossing, I would advise once again the longest boat that fits the budget. Longer usually means more speed, comfort & safety.


BTW, the bahia 46 I suggesting in my first post:

Bahia 46 -- 21385 pounds, 1324 sf sail area -> 27.5 SA/D !

i would not trust manufacturer numbers 0.1%:

method what to include in weight is subjective. Not that long ago even engines were not included in weight.

manufacturers lie. Lagoon 400 sail area is understated for 7m2. Why would any manufacturer report less sail area than in reaity is beyond me. If that is wrong, then weight is likely wrong too, length, etc. Mistake usually in direction you wont like. Take metre, and at least measure what you can against manufacturer specs.
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:40   #50
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by rom View Post
I would like to point out that those numbers may be of interest when comparing boats of the same length, but since the OP is interested in ocean crossing, I would advise once again the longest boat that fits the budget.
I must have missed the (fake?) news about the new ocean they found between northeast US and Caribbean.

Because thats the intended cruising ground according to the first post.
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:47   #51
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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I must have missed the (fake?) news about the new ocean they found between northeast US and Caribbean.

Because thats the intended cruising ground according to the first post.

ok I read it again and you're probably right, I focused on " - A proven reputation as an ocean cruiser"
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:57   #52
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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BTW, the bahia 46 I suggesting in my first post:

Bahia 46 -- 21385 pounds, 1324 sf sail area -> 27.5 SA/D !
For me the FP Mahe 36 strikes as a nice minimal cat with decent performance:
FP Mahe 11020lb, 827sf => 26.7 SA/D

Our Lagoon 380: 16005 lb, 829sf => 20.9 SA/D

Also not slow but not as light footed and quick to accelerate compared to our Mahe.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:54   #53
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by Peregrine1983 View Post
Thanks. I had dismissed these (not 100% sure why) before, but now definitely taking a harder look at them. I did not realize they were on the high performance end with daggerboards etc. The layout is interesting. I love idea of a protected helm. The expanse of flat space is cool as well.

Generally speaking, heavier monohulls are more comfortable in bigger seas. What about cats? Does the same rule apply with heavier tending to be more comfortable?
Great question and yes there is a huge d8fference in how the cats behave. I will give you my take, having owned 4 and sailed on a dozen others and currently living aboard in the caribbean on one.
We had a leopard 38, it was a nicely layed out boat, weighed in empty somewhere around 19k lbs. It was loaded, ac genset, hard top etc. It sailed decent with our 5k lbs worth of liveaboard crap, speeds of 7.5 to 8.5 were fairly common. The boat handled and responded slow and felt like a heavy sluggish boat but comfortable in a seaway. It performed much like say a manta 40/42,I've sailed on and a leopard 42 I spent 30 days at sea on , it had the heavy but sturdy feel to it. We currently sail on a 38 FP Athena that we've done transom extensions and folding props on. B4 the modifications our speeds were pretty much identical to the leopard 38, but the boat being much lighter @ 12000 lbs Or 17k with all our crap on board feels much more lively sailing and feels much more buoyant. It doesn't slam as much and rides up over waves. It also handles the weight of all our stuff better. It does effect how it feels at anchor as it is a little bit more lively there as well but it's not bad. We added 3ft transom extensions and the folding props and now she really performs well with speed averaging 1-2 knots better then our leopard did. She is alot more lively offshore this could bother some people in terms of she moves more with the waves but I actually enjoy the sporty feeling, my wife enjoys the heavier more comfortable feeling of a heavier cat, but we both agree our current boat slams less then any cat we've been on. If I were you I'd look at an older voyage / Norsemen, they sailed really well, built very sturdy, were low slung so had less windage, and yes pound a little m0re but built to take it. But incredibly comfortable platform.
Also as for performance cruising cats, A good article was published by balance, about keels vs daggerboards, there is not enough of a gain for me to want to go dagger boards, and friends of ours on a performance seawind had a top sped of 17 knots, but a cruising avg of 6. So I'd look for a cat that is comfortable, the sacrifice you make on a sub 45ish cat for dagger boards really impacts the interior space and mini keels are nice to have for beachability, and protection.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:19   #54
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Island Spirit is a brand that many miss. They are usually priced much better than the big brands and offer a lot. They were built to be cruisers from inception so they have a lot of features not found in other boats.

If you don't over load them, they sail like mad (true of most cats though). They are low to the water with a big rig that allows more sail in higher winds. The unfortunate downside is slamming in certain seas.

Unfortunatley finding one can be difficult as there was only 44 of them built and only like 38 of them left (hurricanes). I just thought I would add it to your list.
I used to like the island spirit, considered buying one and cruised the carribean in one, but as you said don't overload them, which unfortunately is almost inevitable while you are cruising.

I cruised in company with one from the Seychelles to Madagascar, it's a tuff sail forward of the beam. It got smashed, its boom broke in half and it was slow. The crew commented that they thought it might break up due to severe slamming. It's a small boat trying to be a big boat, originally being a 35 footer.
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:10   #55
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Peregrine1983, are you making any progress ? do you have a short list of cats you like ?
Absolutely not! Unless we call the list of potential boats getting longer progress . This thread has opened my eyes to the fact that there are lots of different cats out there and lots of things to consider. Much like the world of monohulls.

That said, if I had to buy a boat right now, never having sailed one, it would probably be the FP Bahia 46 Rom mentioned. It's attractive looking, the SA/D of 27.5 seems to show a boat that will perform, but it's also substantial at 21385 pounds.

Having graduated to larger monohulls over the years, I just know I'd rather be in a bigger boat than a smaller boat. And the more I think about it and read these posts... while I do want a boat that will perform, I don't think I really want a light boat.

I currently sail a heavy-ish cruising ketch from the 80's - 22,000 lb and 42' LOA. The boat really comes into her own in 20+ knots and when other boats are heading in, she's finally starting to haul a$$. And she feels very safe doing so. Obviously the drawbacks are she doesn't point high, and in light air she's kind of a pig. But... I love the heavy feeling at anchor, I love stepping on the boat and not feeling her budge, and she's just steady and not easily thrown around by wakes etc.

So while I haven't set foot on one yet, the Bahia 46 ticks a lot of boxes on paper.
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:30   #56
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by Peregrine1983 View Post
Absolutely not! Unless we call the list of potential boats getting longer progress . This thread has opened my eyes to the fact that there are lots of different cats out there and lots of things to consider. Much like the world of monohulls.

That said, if I had to buy a boat right now, never having sailed one, it would probably be the FP Bahia 46 Rom mentioned. It's attractive looking, the SA/D of 27.5 seems to show a boat that will perform, but it's also substantial at 21385 pounds.

Having graduated to larger monohulls over the years, I just know I'd rather be in a bigger boat than a smaller boat. And the more I think about it and read these posts... while I do want a boat that will perform, I don't think I really want a light boat.

I currently sail a heavy-ish cruising ketch from the 80's - 22,000 lb and 42' LOA. The boat really comes into her own in 20+ knots and when other boats are heading in, she's finally starting to haul a$$. And she feels very safe doing so. Obviously the drawbacks are she doesn't point high, and in light air she's kind of a pig. But... I love the heavy feeling at anchor, I love stepping on the boat and not feeling her budge, and she's just steady and not easily thrown around by wakes etc.

So while I haven't set foot on one yet, the Bahia 46 ticks a lot of boxes on paper.
Something to keep in mind: as we continue our search, our habit is to lean toward large - e.g., the Bahia, however we just spoke to some folks who sold their Shuttleworth 44 very recently. One major reason - haulouts. Make sure you have a place in mind that can haul your beam.

Regards,
Lee
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:39   #57
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Something to keep in mind: as we continue our search, our habit is to lean toward large - e.g., the Bahia, however we just spoke to some folks who sold their Shuttleworth 44 very recently. One major reason - haulouts. Make sure you have a place in mind that can haul your beam.

Regards,
Lee
Very true.
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Old 10-09-2018, 13:18   #58
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by Peregrine1983 View Post
That said, if I had to buy a boat right now, never having sailed one, it would probably be the FP Bahia 46 Rom mentioned. It's attractive looking, the SA/D of 27.5 seems to show a boat that will perform, but it's also substantial at 21385 pounds.
The Bahia isn't substantial. Shes a relatively light build just like all FPs. Nothing wrong with this, it gives good performance.

Other brands build far more substantial boats. Especially the older models of Privilege, Broadblue, Catalacs. these are heavy, sturdy and ... slow.


The type of movement nderway also has a lot todo with hull shapes. Fine sterns lead to more hobby horsing, worst example probably is the Heavenly Twins.

Comparing our previous boats and our current 380 we can see the difference. Our FP Mahe was much lighter, accelerated easily in a puff but was also slowed down when seas got a little rough due to more hobby horsing (finer sterns). Our 410 was heavily loaded with gear, and while she felt reassuring like a tank she wasn't quick at all.
Our 380 now (kept realtively light, with folding props and gennaker) delivers nice low wind perfomance but is also assuring when it starts to blow.


At anchor all of them were very nice, except when wake hits from the side.
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Old 10-09-2018, 15:06   #59
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

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Originally Posted by Peregrine1983 View Post
Thanks. I had dismissed these (not 100% sure why) before, but now definitely taking a harder look at them. I did not realize they were on the high performance end with daggerboards etc. The layout is interesting. I love idea of a protected helm. The expanse of flat space is cool as well.

Generally speaking, heavier monohulls are more comfortable in bigger seas. What about cats? Does the same rule apply with heavier tending to be more comfortable?

It’s not so much heavier vs lighter for cruising catamarans, but longer vs shorter. Longer cats are more comfortable than shorter cats, regardless of displacement.

For a given length faster and lighter catamarans will be less comfortable than slower and heavier catamarans - the former sails more on top of the water and has lots of micro accelerations and decelerations, while the latter sails through the water more like a monohull.
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Old 14-09-2018, 07:54   #60
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Re: Used catamaran suggestions

I have been round and round the question of performance cats over the years too. The reality is that catana hold their value very well and old Outremers are pretty small inside and “agricultural”. I really wanted to like the Catana 42 but chartered one for 10 days and concluded it was just a little too small and uncomfortable for my taste. We went half way round the world in our FP Belize 43 and it had more space than we needed and very few problems. I wouldn’t have found any benefit in having the extra size of the Bahia 46 to push around. As others have said FP went through a bad patch of osmosis problems so would be vary Of some of the newer models. Looking today I would also look at the Seawind 1160, the 1250 is probably outside your budget. The French designer Eric Lerouge also has some sporty mini-keel boats going around but some of them look a little homemade rather than yard built in the interiors.
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