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Old 08-06-2016, 15:38   #76
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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Originally Posted by Training Wheels View Post
I'm thinking of going with the Fiorentino Shark Drogue. Anybody have experience with it?


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We tested it, works fine, pretty much like the delta. Only thing I did not like is it has a big chunk of metal - not needed and I would prefer it be "soft".
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Old 08-06-2016, 18:01   #77
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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Originally Posted by Training Wheels View Post
I'm thinking of going with the Fiorentino Shark Drogue. Anybody have experience with it?

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See some of my earlier messages in this thread.
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Old 08-06-2016, 18:21   #78
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
We tested it, works fine, pretty much like the delta. Only thing I did not like is it has a big chunk of metal - not needed and I would prefer it be "soft".
Any thoughts on the Galerider vs. Delta Drogue? It seemed to me that the gale rider was less inclined to pull out, and did so more smoothly when it did. Galerider does not specify chain (not sure why, after asking), but if used, it also seems to run a little deeper. Physically much bigger for equal drag, but I liked it. I found the Delta quite hard to lift when full of water (need to grab a corner).
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Old 08-06-2016, 20:25   #79
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

^^ thing I liked about the galerider was it could (in theory - never tested it) be used to scoop up a mob. But "scoop" also has possible downside - We broke the wire rim on one - think it hit a log off the Amazon. Did not see much difference in the performance between the various single elements we tested - there is probably some but it did not seem significant.

We tried w/chain and without and again did not see much difference.
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:50   #80
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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I don't know about 2 drogues off the stern. It just seems so complicated ....
You drop the first drogue in the water, as it tensions up you let the rode out, the next thing the second drogue follows (on the same rode), you let the rest of the rode out ... until all is out and tensions up. Retrieval is everything in reverse ... this time you need to work a bit harder pulling everything on board. That's it. Not complicated at all!? Child's work. Certainly no more complicated nor harder work than with the JSD.
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:02   #81
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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The 2 string idea is interesting, but I'd be (perhaps pointlessly) worried about the 2 tangling. There is a lot of yawing in big waves. It is also a lot of rope since they need to be quite far back.

No, you do not need to decide in advance, though it does help to make some preparations if you are using bridles. You do need to deploy the second while the loads are still manageable.
I'm referring to the two Shark drogues we tested on two separate rodes;

At the time of doing our test, we were also concerned about the rodes tangling up, although we only had them in the water for something like 20 minutes - they did not tangled up. However, that concern remained it was precisely because of this possible tangling up issue that we now have a bridle setup and with the drogues rigged up in tandem.

Our setup now will always involve the deployment of two drogues. I do not want to take the risk of first deploying one drogue, then wanting to later add the second drogue - only to find that conditions or the load do not make it possible. Our thinking is "rather be safe than sorry".
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Old 09-06-2016, 12:19   #82
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

^^ One of the nice design features of the shark is its "Drogue tail" - that is designed so you can attach weight (small anchor) to the drogue, but it is also ideal in concept for attaching a second tandem drogue. I am not sure how strong the drogue tail is (Revelations do you know have any idea?) - it was always intended 'just' to hold a weight and not a second full drogue load. Zach did not 'believe in' tandom drogues the last time I talked to him - he thought a weight was all that was needed (I think he was mistaken in that - edit and looking at their web site just now he seems to have come around to the tandem idea). But it would be easy to beef up with dyneema if that was needed.

Our delta I modified by adding a dyneema strop, and all other single elements I am aware of you would have to the same. It is not at all hard, and a sail maker could do if someone does not want to DIY.
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Old 09-06-2016, 20:01   #83
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^ One of the nice design features of the shark is its "Drogue tail" - that is designed so you can attach weight (small anchor) to the drogue, but it is also ideal in concept for attaching a second tandem drogue. I am not sure how strong the drogue tail is (Revelations do you know have any idea?) - it was always intended 'just' to hold a weight and not a second full drogue load. Zach did not 'believe in' tandom drogues the last time I talked to him - he thought a weight was all that was needed (I think he was mistaken in that - edit and looking at their web site just now he seems to have come around to the tandem idea). But it would be easy to beef up with dyneema if that was needed.

Our delta I modified by adding a dyneema strop, and all other single elements I am aware of you would have to the same. It is not at all hard, and a sail maker could do if someone does not want to DIY.
We completely removed the tail that came standard with the Shark. We replaced it with about 2 - 3 meters of stainless steel chain and another 50 meters of dyneema. We then attached the second drogue at the end of the dyneema. We also removed the tail on the second drogue and added about 5 meters of stainless steel chain.

As mentioned by thinwater in one of his earlier messages, due to the tension exerted by the second drogue onto the first drogue, the first drogue did not break water and stayed submerged. The second drogue mainly stayed below the water surface - but it did seem to did break the surface once in awhile. But then, it was almost 200 meters behind the yacht and quite difficult to tell at that distance.
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Old 09-06-2016, 20:32   #84
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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I'm referring to the two Shark drogues we tested on two separate rodes;

At the time of doing our test, we were also concerned about the rodes tangling up, although we only had them in the water for something like 20 minutes - they did not tangled up. However, that concern remained it was precisely because of this possible tangling up issue that we now have a bridle setup and with the drogues rigged up in tandem.

Our setup now will always involve the deployment of two drogues. I do not want to take the risk of first deploying one drogue, then wanting to later add the second drogue - only to find that conditions or the load do not make it possible. Our thinking is "rather be safe than sorry".
The way I have done this under load is to attach an extension (20' with 2 eyes) that brings the rode up to the transom. Then I added the second drogue, cast off the bridle, and let the rest of the rode run out until the second bridle catches. The legs of the first bridle simply train alongside the rode.

I've run tandems with most drogues by simply running the rode through the center. The Delta may be the only one requiring a simple mod.

I'm not sure Fiorentino gets the point on tandems. The manual says it is the same as one drogue with more weight, which I don't believe is true; the separation makes a big difference in waves.

The bridle shown on page 21 is completely non-functional in confused seas; try it and you will see why (too short and geometrically unstable). I also found his "throw it in the air" deployment system comical; try that in enough wind and the drogue will just hit you in the face, obviously. But the drag numbers seem right.
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Old 10-06-2016, 02:40   #85
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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Originally Posted by Revelations View Post
We completely removed the tail that came standard with the Shark. We replaced it with about 2 - 3 meters of stainless steel chain and another 50 meters of dyneema. We then attached the second drogue at the end of the dyneema. We also removed the tail on the second drogue and added about 5 meters of stainless steel chain.

As mentioned by thinwater in one of his earlier messages, due to the tension exerted by the second drogue onto the first drogue, the first drogue did not break water and stayed submerged. The second drogue mainly stayed below the water surface - but it did seem to did break the surface once in awhile. But then, it was almost 200 meters behind the yacht and quite difficult to tell at that distance.
You are certainly doing a better job of describing the deployment than I did. I was tripping over which is the first and second drogue. To correct myself;

The drogue which will end up further away from the yacht, goes into the water first. The yacht will move away from this drogue and as it moves away, one will let out the rode accordingly. The next drogue (ending up closest to the yacht) fitted inline on the same rode follows next. The rest of the rode is let out until everything is in the water and it then tensions up on the bridle. And no, due to the weight of the attached chain, flinging the drogue into the air is simply not possible.

Although we never tried it - we also do not like the bridle setup as depicted on page 21 (Shark manual) and suspect that the short leg bridle setup might be unstable. We ended up with a bridle where each leg of the bridle is about 1.5 times the width of the yacht - 40 feet. With this longer bridle, one can stand/sit at either the port or starboard transom when deploying the drogue. Just making sure that the legs of the bridle have a clear and unobstructed path into the water.
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Old 12-08-2016, 15:02   #86
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^ One of the nice design features of the shark is its "Drogue tail" - that is designed so you can attach weight (small anchor) to the drogue, but it is also ideal in concept for attaching a second tandem drogue. I am not sure how strong the drogue tail is (Revelations do you know have any idea?) - it was always intended 'just' to hold a weight and not a second full drogue load. Zach did not 'believe in' tandom drogues the last time I talked to him - he thought a weight was all that was needed (I think he was mistaken in that - edit and looking at their web site just now he seems to have come around to the tandem idea). But it would be easy to beef up with dyneema if that was needed.

Our delta I modified by adding a dyneema strop, and all other single elements I am aware of you would have to the same. It is not at all hard, and a sail maker could do if someone does not want to DIY.
Evans, Fiorentino Para-Anchor would like to set the record straight regarding several of your inaccuracies.

Fiorentino’s Drogue Tail was originally invented by Zack Smith for tandem use, a first in our industry over 10 years ago. Our testing shows the Drogue Tail rode has an approximate break strength of 16,000 lbs. and Fiorentino’s exclusive thimble stretched a little bit at 25,000 lbs. but did not break. The Dyneema sling broke before we could reach thimble failure. The 3/4 in. jaw and jaw swivel where the Drogue Tail is anchored to the patented Para-Ring (the mouth of the drogue) has an approximate break strength of 28,000 lbs.

Our Shark drogue design was completed in 2006 for either single drogue or tandem use. However, as our published testing demonstrates, we found
a mushroom anchor attached to the Shark can behave similar to a second drogue and was easier to manage. Our 7 drogue comparison video on YouTube shows how the shape and weight of the mushroom anchor provided extra drag when attached to the Shark. That’s why, even when you use the Shark drogue in tandem, we recommend mushroom anchor use instead of chain. It’s up to sailors to decide whether to use a single Shark or two Sharks in tandem.

During testing we also discovered that chain weight can be effective for use with other tandem drogues. Without chain in a tandem situation, you can risk too much oscillation between the drogues and rode, resulting in shock loading that can lead to rode chafe. You can also lose significant drag from either one or both drogues without the use of weight. The difficulty in deploying two separate drogues and their accessories from a fast moving boat where cruisers frequently store lots of equipment is another factor to consider.

Finally, do you really believe it’s prudent to recommend altering a
manufacturer’s drogue as mentioned in your post? Aren’t you worried about affecting the structural integrity of a device made from fabric which can tear? Such modifications could raise safety issues. And altering a drogue would likely void any manufacturer’s warrantee. The photo on your website showing your Delta modification looks like an imitation of our Drogue Tail invention. Since the Shark drogue is already designed to do what you want without modifications why alter another manufacturer’s drogue?
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Old 12-08-2016, 15:06   #87
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
We tested it, works fine, pretty much like the delta. Only thing I did not like is it has a big chunk of metal - not needed and I would prefer it be "soft".
Evans, how did you surmise the 316 stainless Para-Ring and Jaw and Jaw swivel are “not needed?” The utility patented “chunk of metal” as you describe is essential for a number of reasons, some which are listed below and others shown in our drogue comparison videos on YouTube.

Here’s what the Para-Ring does. It causes forced inflation by insuring water flow into the mouth of the Shark. This means the body of the canopy is forced to remain inflated and the system remains taut. As mentioned in our other post, the Para-Ring serves as an anchoring point for Fiorentino’s Drogue Tail. The Drogue Tail permits the use of a mushroom anchor behind the drogue omitting the need to attach chain weight in front or in back of the drogue. Not only does this make deployment easier and significantly faster, a sailor can use his or her winch to pull the Shark out of the water during retrieval, because there’s only rode in front of the device.

The manufacturer of the Delta drogue recommends chain attachment in front of the Delta, requiring a sailor during retrieval to pull the chain up and away from the boat’s hull to avoid scraping it. This can be a challenge if retrieval is in sloppy seas.

Additionally, the Para-Ring makes emergency steering easier and more effective because you only have to attach a 2-line Shark bridle setup to the hardware without adding any type of weight. This permits a sailor to haul the Shark right up to the boat which turns the boat faster. Other drogues require chain for emergency steering.

Yes, we are familiar with your attendance at the Steve Dashew & Zack Smith’s 2006 tow test which took Steve and Zack two years of e-mail exchanges to arrange. They ended up towing the 48 x 56 in. Galerider, large Shark drogue, and the 690 ft. Series drogue behind Steve and Linda Dashews’ Windhorse trawler.

The test proved the larger Galerider slowed Windhorse by 0.1 knots more than the much smaller Shark drogue. Statistically speaking, a 0.1 knot reduction in speed is nominal. The heavier Series drogue slowed Windhorse more than both speed-limiting drogues at 1.5 and 1.6 knots respectively. What the test proved was how compact the Shark is compared to the Galerider and Series drogue, making the Shark much easier to handle while achieving good results.

Following the test, Dashew immediately published the test results on his website in November 2006 and wrote that the Shark was “a very welcome addition to the heavy weather arsenal. The compact design and ease of launching are big advantages. And we particularly like the ability to shackle two or more of these drogues in series.”

We hope our posts sets the record straight on why Fiorentino developed the Shark Drogue and how important and unique the Para-Ring and Drogue Tail are to the Shark’s design.
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Old 13-08-2016, 07:18   #88
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

Or another way, just go with it at 20 knts. (Ovive sailing fast in the South Pacific) youtube
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Old 13-08-2016, 07:33   #89
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

Interesting to read and maybe time I revisted your kit - having had one before.
However, you state that your arrangement is much easier to handle? Being frank, I just have to clip my JSD to my pupose installed strong points and feed it out of its bag and its done. After the first few meters are deployed it pulls itself out of the bag. It doesnt come any simpler.
The only bear is the retrieval of the JSD. but by then I am grateful that conditions have improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiorentino View Post
Evans, how did you surmise the 316 stainless Para-Ring and Jaw and Jaw swivel are “not needed?” The utility patented “chunk of metal” as you describe is essential for a number of reasons, some which are listed below and others shown in our drogue comparison videos on YouTube.

Here’s what the Para-Ring does. It causes forced inflation by insuring water flow into the mouth of the Shark. This means the body of the canopy is forced to remain inflated and the system remains taut. As mentioned in our other post, the Para-Ring serves as an anchoring point for Fiorentino’s Drogue Tail. The Drogue Tail permits the use of a mushroom anchor behind the drogue omitting the need to attach chain weight in front or in back of the drogue. Not only does this make deployment easier and significantly faster, a sailor can use his or her winch to pull the Shark out of the water during retrieval, because there’s only rode in front of the device.

The manufacturer of the Delta drogue recommends chain attachment in front of the Delta, requiring a sailor during retrieval to pull the chain up and away from the boat’s hull to avoid scraping it. This can be a challenge if retrieval is in sloppy seas.

Additionally, the Para-Ring makes emergency steering easier and more effective because you only have to attach a 2-line Shark bridle setup to the hardware without adding any type of weight. This permits a sailor to haul the Shark right up to the boat which turns the boat faster. Other drogues require chain for emergency steering.

Yes, we are familiar with your attendance at the Steve Dashew & Zack Smith’s 2006 tow test which took Steve and Zack two years of e-mail exchanges to arrange. They ended up towing the 48 x 56 in. Galerider, large Shark drogue, and the 690 ft. Series drogue behind Steve and Linda Dashews’ Windhorse trawler.

The test proved the larger Galerider slowed Windhorse by 0.1 knots more than the much smaller Shark drogue. Statistically speaking, a 0.1 knot reduction in speed is nominal. The heavier Series drogue slowed Windhorse more than both speed-limiting drogues at 1.5 and 1.6 knots respectively. What the test proved was how compact the Shark is compared to the Galerider and Series drogue, making the Shark much easier to handle while achieving good results.

Following the test, Dashew immediately published the test results on his website in November 2006 and wrote that the Shark was “a very welcome addition to the heavy weather arsenal. The compact design and ease of launching are big advantages. And we particularly like the ability to shackle two or more of these drogues in series.”

We hope our posts sets the record straight on why Fiorentino developed the Shark Drogue and how important and unique the Para-Ring and Drogue Tail are to the Shark’s design.
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Old 13-08-2016, 13:56   #90
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Re: Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

Fiorentino’s published testing indicates speed-limiting drogues, like the Shark, have an advantage because they all require much less weight and are much easier to deploy and retrieve, because of their relatively small size. On average, the Shark is deployed with a 10 pound mushroom anchor attached to its Drogue Tail. However, for extreme storm use, any anchor up to 25 pounds can be attached to the Drogue Tail.

The Series drogue is heavier. In our testing, we have followed recommendations by Donald Jordon, who designed the Series drogue, to add a 25 lb. anchor for smaller boats and a 35-50 lb anchor for larger boats. In the 1987 USCG report written by Jordon, he said he added 35 pounds of chain weight to prevent his 90 element Series drogue from collapsing and the yacht from yawing during his tests.


Adding chain weight makes the Series drogue even heavier. The weight may cause it to deploy fast, but a sailor needs to be very careful to avoid entanglements around equipment stored at the stern. As you have noted, recovery is difficult. The Series drogue also is large and requires more storage space than the speed-limiting drogues.



You can watch a YouTube video we published of Pam Wall,
provisioning expert and respected cruising lifestyle speaker, handling the various storm drogues, including the Series, to learn more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Interesting to read and maybe time I revisted your kit - having had one before.
However, you state that your arrangement is much easier to handle? Being frank, I just have to clip my JSD to my pupose installed strong points and feed it out of its bag and its done. After the first few meters are deployed it pulls itself out of the bag. It doesnt come any simpler.
The only bear is the retrieval of the JSD. but by then I am grateful that conditions have improved.
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