Upwind performance of condomarans

[JPA Cate]

I do not have an opinion to post in this thread, as I am not a monohullist. However, I HAVE seen Seawinds in New Caledonia, and have some friends with one who sailed her to NZ, and Vanuatu and New Caledonia, so there you go. Some people treat them as if they were okay for crossing little bits of ocean, anyway.

I have also seen a Lagoon with the flybridge, and you couldn't reach the liferaft if it turned turtle, or caught fire.

These have nothing to do with product bashing, but to me, if you care about having a liferaft, and not everyone does, but if you do, that is something you'd want to figure out how to address.

Ann

On "Edit": Thanks to weavis, the multihullist and monohullist, I see I wrote wrong. I am a monohuller, not a multihuller. Sorry for the mistake.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I do not have an opinion to post in this thread, as I am not a monohullist.

Ann

er... yes you are...

[PaulinOz]

Quote smj #237 "I understand the load carrying capacity as being part of the blue water requirements, but does anyone recall any Seawind’s that have capsized while sailing?

Quote smj "Obviously to you the ability to carry washer/dryer, dish washer and trash compactor is considered more seaworthy than being kept in the upright non capsized position. Since the Lagoons seem to have a multitude of capsizes and the Seawind’s have none maybe your quote should have read “ this thread started mixing cruising long distance cats like Seawind with coastal cruiser cats like Lagoon”

If you are going to take into consideration when comparing different vessels (Long distance cruisers verses Coastal Cruisers), the number of historical sinkings / capsizes / dis-mastings. Lagoons having multitudes (your words not mine) to Seawinds having none, you are looking at numbers of "x" compared to numbers of "y".

Numbers there in lies the rub.

How many Seawinds have been used in the the long distance cruising roll, because your assumption is that the sinkings / capsizes / dis-mastings happen out in the blue water environment. Hence your preference for Seawind as a Bluewater long distance cruiser. Hard to know how many Seawinds have been truly used in Bluewater compared to coastal cruisers. Perhaps a look at the registrations for the ARC/ARC Plus may be an indication, or The Pacific Puddle jump each year may give some indication.

Next number issue if we had 50x and 50y sailing for 10 years together then the number of incidents occurring to both x and y may well be of some consideration when deciding between each one as a long distance cruiser.

Seawind have produce some 600 boats over the past 35 years.

One Lagoon model the L380 in production for past 20 years has launched over 800.

The L450 in production for 8 years is up over 700 that is only 2 of there current models.

Currently this year Lagoon will produce some 500 vessels. (That is one years production almost equaling Seawinds last 35 years)

So comparing apples to oranges is difficult enough but when the oranges outnumber the apples by a Factor of some 5 to 10 times, it becomes very difficult to draw any sensible conclusions what so ever, based on incomplete or sketchy Internet reported incidents.

None of this proves or implies the ability or for that matter the lack of ability of the Seawind 1250 to be a long distance cruiser. All I am trying to point out is that just because a vessel has had or not had an incident, unless all the numbers and all the facts are know, not much in the way of useful conclusions can be drawn from that limited data on the internet. (eg: bringing up the Lagoon 400 sinking, that seems to have been caused by collision with a cargo ship) Not very relevant at all to a Lagoons long distance cruising ability. Very important I guess If you wish to go around ramming cargo ships though.

Every body has a different idea of what the perfect long distance cruising boat is. It is a very personal thing. Viva La difference.

To some being able to do half wind speed in 12 knots is the ultimate, for others to still have the sails up in 45 plus knots of wind and safely keep sailing is an important thing.

Some want to carry "washer/dryer, dish washer and trash compactor". While others may wish to carry a life raft, a dinghy, a generator, a water maker, an inverter etc.

Which brings me back to my original point that I have been trying to make all along in this discussion, none of these above items are included in most vessels original weight and need to be taken into account in the loading of the vessel. If you do not have correct information to start with, it is very difficult to make a sensible, safe decision on what can or can not be add on to or loaded on your chosen vessel.

Most of us on here, I assume, despite the way we behave sometimes during a discussion, have enough common sense to work out most of it for ourselves, but there are new people all the time reading advice and comments, these need to be consider when handing out advice carte blanche.

[sailjumanji]

Oh, and I can confirm for Sluggo there are airtight crash/flotation compartments located at both the bow and stern, of both hulls of the 1160 Lite.

[smj]

1 Seawind states no capsizes, nothing to recall.
2 from what I interpreted the sinking was not caused by the cargo ship? Is this the first sinking of a Lagoon? No. I remember underwater pictures years back of them raising a Lagoon of the bottom in the Caribbean.
3 the sinking’s are relevant to Lagoons long distance cruising ability as they are supposed to have positive flotation. If they sink it’s a possibility they were overloaded, are Lagoons loading stats correct?
I have no beef with you, you didn’t state Seawind’s are coastal cruisers. Scour the internet and you will find multiple stories of Lagoons sinking, capsizing and decks being torn from the hulls, and these aren’t all the stories as I can recall quite a few more, and I’m sure those reading these comments looking to purchase a catamaran will have the forethought to do their own research. I’m sure you will find stories about Seawind’s as well, but no capsizes, full sinkings or loss of rigs. As far as the stats go, once we have a failure on a Seawind then we can compare stats, until then...........and by the way, the Lagoon is not my cup of tea but I’m also not a hater.

[smj]

Originally Posted by smj

1 Seawind states no capsizes, nothing to recall.
2 from what I interpreted the sinking was not caused by the cargo ship? Is this the first sinking of a Lagoon? No. I remember underwater pictures years back of them raising a Lagoon of the bottom in the Caribbean.
3 the sinking’s are relevant to Lagoons long distance cruising ability as they are supposed to have positive flotation. If they sink it’s a possibility they were overloaded, are Lagoons loading stats correct?
I have no beef with you, you didn’t state Seawind’s are coastal cruisers. Scour the internet and you will find multiple stories of Lagoons sinking, capsizing and decks being torn from the hulls, and these aren’t all the stories as I can recall quite a few more, and I’m sure those reading these comments looking to purchase a catamaran will have the forethought to do their own research. I’m sure you will find stories about Seawind’s as well, but no capsizes, full sinkings or loss of rigs. As far as the stats go, once we have a failure on a Seawind then we can compare stats, until then...........and by the way, the Lagoon is not my cup of tea but I’m also not a hater.

A couple of more thoughts. Doing half windspeed is not a performance boat, quite the opposite. And I have sailed and inspected both Seawind’s and Lagoons, and honestly in my opinion you are comparing apples to oranges.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I do not have an opinion to post in this thread, as I am not a monohullist. However, I HAVE seen Seawinds in New Caledonia, and have some friends with one who sailed her to NZ, and Vanuatu and New Caledonia, so there you go. Some people treat them as if they were okay for crossing little bits of ocean, anyway.

I have also seen a Lagoon with the flybridge, and you couldn't reach the liferaft if it turned turtle, or caught fire.

These have nothing to do with product bashing, but to me, if you care about having a liferaft, and not everyone does, but if you do, that is something you'd want to figure out how to address.

Ann

On "Edit": Thanks to weavis, the multihullist and monohullist, I see I wrote wrong. I am a monohuller, not a multihuller. Sorry for the mistake.

Thanks Ann. The sea trial of the first Seawind 1250 involved a sail across the Tasman to NZ, around the islands and back, as well as Bass strait crossings.

Which is in part why I said it was intended to be a long distance cruiser. It's also very similar in layout and accomodation to the 1160, but with longer hulls, more clearance and carrying capacity.

If they were doing a bigger 1160 with chartering as the aim, it would seem more sensible to add more beds and heads, rather than more bridgedeck clearance.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

this thread turned into seawind promotion ? I think guys you should start separate thread.

FACTOR !!!

be nice and answer questions about 0.5% better rating for daggerboards.

Else I will start doubting your claims and credibility!

If the handicap penalty for racing a daggerboard boat is really only .5%, then I can certainly see why most cats racing have daggerboards!

[sailjumanji]

So when was the 1250 made? Years? Because new model is 1260 made in Vietnam, and therefore resin infused, composite panels, etc. There is probably a significant weight difference between the two models, if the 1250 was made in AUS.

[44'cruisingcat]

Production of all Seawind models moved to Vietnam something like 10 years ago. Since then all their production moved to resin infusion, with subsequent benefits in weight.

[PaulinOz]

Quote smj "Doing half windspeed is not a performance boat, quite the opposite."

And to quote myself "To some being able to do half wind speed in 12 knots is the ultimate, for others to still have the sails up in 45 plus knots of wind and safely keep sailing is an important thing."

I was suggesting that some people see that attribute to be good indicator for a long distance cruising vessel. Nothing to do with a performance multi hull whatsoever. Just as sailing safely in 45 plus knots of wind, has nothing to do with a performance boat, just another attribute that some may also see as important to a long distance cruiser.

I must be a bit thick, because I do not understand where you got the impression I was talking about performance boats quote "is not a performance boat, quite the opposite." I was not trying to imply any of the boats under discussion are a performance boats. Just some of the differences in peoples expectations of long range cruising vessel.

Quote smj "And I have sailed and inspected both Seawind’s and Lagoons, and honestly in my opinion you are comparing apples to oranges."

Likewise I have also sailed Seawinds and Lagoons and honestly in my opinion I am comparing apples to oranges.

I came a signature away from owning an apple at one time and currently own two oranges. It all depends on ones taste as to which fruit you chose. Which is something else I have been advocating on here for quiet long time. Different strokes for different blokes.

I have never attacked a brand of vessel based on my requirements and what I believe, compared to what some one else believes. I obviously enjoy a good discussion other wise I would not persist here and try to discuss facts not feelings. Look at my signature, not names I have given myself but names that have been thrown my way during discussion over the past years, there are other names I have been called I chose not incorporate.

I think my choice is perfect for me, perfect for others that is up to them to decided based on there requirements. I will stick up for my choice based on my criteria when that is challenged, but I have no blinkers on, ask and I will tell you the short comings of my choice and how it could be improved withing the frame work of my needs, wants and ability to pay for it.

Find a discussion where somebody asks about the sailing / cruising attributes of a vessel and I have jumped in with derogatory comments about said vessels abilities or put the vessel down based on my requirements.

Unlike some others comments over the years. EG:"I didn't realize you wanted a motor boat instead of a sail boat" "it cant even sail in under 12 knots at 1/2 wind speed" (not direct quotes but from my memory of previous discussions)

Go back over the past 6 years and the same old names keep coming up over and over and over again pushing there particular barrow, be it based on a corporate or personal bias. I have no doubt that what they believe is true (to them anyway), but others are not only entitled to have an opinion, some times they may be just as correct as well.

I have been accused more than once of being a blinkered "Lagoon Fan Boy" hence part of my signature. Go over to the Fountaine Pajot or Lepoard sections and find me trying to push a Lagoon barrow. Do not bother, because you will not find that sort of post by me there. The world is big enough and diverse enough to incorporate all the brands as they all bring something good to the long range cruising table.

Find a post where somebody is inquiring about a particular performance multihull's attributes and me charging in telling them they do not want to buy that and would be way better off if they purchased a Lagoon. Do not bother looking because you will not find that either.

The converse sadly is not true, the number of biased personal opinions and innuendoes directed towards a Lagoon information inquiry or recommendation is legion. Hence me trying to fly the Lagoon flag.

Is my Lagoon flag flying repetitive and in a higher proportion than others with different brands. Possibly or it may just be that Lagoon represents 1 in 3 of every new Production Multihull launched today. So 1 in 3 Multihull Posts on the Cruisers forum will in all probability be about a Lagoon.

[smj]

As I said, my beef isn’t with you

[PaulinOz]

Quote smj "As I said, my beef isn’t with you" I am not taking anything you posted as a beef with me.

Quote sailjumanji "So when was the 1250 made? Years? Because new model is 1260 made in Vietnam, and therefore resin infused, composite panels, etc. There is probably a significant weight difference between the two models, if the 1250 was made in AUS."

Seawind 1250 was still manufactured in Australia in March 2011 (when I nearly purchased one) then 1250 production was moved to Vietnam sometime after that (circa 2012 -2013). Then ceased with the introduction of the new 1260. (Others here will have the exact dates).


"a significant weight difference" Apparently not unless I have unearthed a misprint, 1250 spec sheet and page from 1260 hand book, posted so I do not get accused of miss quoting anything.









Also probably of significance to part of the discussion over past several days is the warning in the middle of the 1260 spec page. Seawind as a manufacturer obviously do not know about the ability to overload a vessel with out any additional consequences, as is advocated among some posters on this forum.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Production of all Seawind models moved to Vietnam something like 10 years ago. Since then all their production moved to resin infusion, with subsequent benefits in weight.

Not quite that long ago. I was living just up the toad from the wollongong factory up till 2013 and they were still building the 1250s locally but had moved the smaller ones to vietnam by then.

I for one would like to see a 1250 or 60 light. That would get my attention.

[catsketcher]

[QUOTE=PaulinOz;2586118]

And to quote myself "To some being able to do half wind speed in 12 knots is the ultimate, for others to still have the sails up in 45 plus knots of wind and safely keep sailing is an important thing."

QUOTE]

I think that this is not an either/or choice. Many nice sailing boats can sail well with high winds. I try very hard not to sail in winds of 45 knots but we certainly sail in heavy winds when almost all other cats are motoring. It is a question of drag as well as stability. A nice storm jib on an inner forestay, a deep third reef, good lateral resistance and as low an aero drag as possible. For some boats this is lower freeboard, less cabin height, no flybridge etc. Weight on its own is not vital, it is all about the balance of lift and drag. Lower the drag and you can still keep sailing in the bigger winds with less sail. Although if you want to have full sail up then we are different, I get scared of the loads in big winds, even on a lightish 38 footer, so going small is right where I want to be.

cheers

Phil