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Old 14-02-2018, 14:19   #31
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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A recent upwind sail.
And the current was?
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Old 14-02-2018, 14:28   #32
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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Where do you find "steady 20 kn true or more" and "flat water" in the same place at the same time? I want to go sail there
you absolutely correct.

However, one can find flat enough water often enough for these abilities to be exploited. Steady winds is more difficulty in sheltered waters so one cant leave helm and have drinks.
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Old 14-02-2018, 15:17   #33
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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A recent upwind sail.
We know your boat is off topic but you couldn't resist
You don't give much information but it's a nice looking track for sure !
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Old 14-02-2018, 17:26   #34
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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Where do you find "steady 20 kn true or more" and "flat water" in the same place at the same time? I want to go sail there
Marlborough Sounds, Sth Is, NZ. Just come back from 4 days. First skippering since I sold out. Flat water, building during the morning until @18 knots for around 4 hours every afternoon. Direction a bit variable.

Still, was reminded what I have been missing.
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Old 14-02-2018, 17:49   #35
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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And the current was?
Pretty slight. Close to the bottom of the tide at the start, so pushing just a bit of tide initially, getting just a little assistance at the end. (We were going south.)

You can see the slight change in the angles.
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Old 14-02-2018, 18:02   #36
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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And the current was?
A knot or two through the Great Sandy Strait, depending on state of the tide.

I'm impressed that he was able to sail through there at all, I've spent a few days going through there in each direction, and I think we bothered putting sails up only once. And that was a token effort.

I guess a 2m draft makes it a bit tougher - but Bob Oram wouldn't swap my mono for Slim. I did ask.

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Old 14-02-2018, 18:17   #37
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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A knot or two through the Great Sandy Strait, depending on state of the tide.

I'm impressed that he was able to sail through there at all, I've spent a few days going through there in each direction, and I think we bothered putting sails up only once. And that was a token effort.

I guess a 2m draft makes it a bit tougher - but Bob Oram wouldn't swap my mono for Slim. I did ask.

Mike
Pretty nice breeze that day, (18-20 kts) and plenty of time so it was nice to sail. Upwind though, our draught was maybe more than yours!
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Old 14-02-2018, 18:45   #38
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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Pretty nice breeze that day, (18-20 kts) and plenty of time so it was nice to sail. Upwind though, our draught was maybe more than yours!
Bit harder for me to pull up the keel once we hit though - particularly with our nice pointy bulb to dig in going either way. Do you have one or two boards?

And I'm a wuss who doesn't like running aground.

I do like that you sailed through there - shows that a performance cat in real world conditions does go upwind close enough to a cruising mono to make no difference in the real world. And clearly tacks well enough that it's not an issue tacking up a (broad) channel. I'm liking the idea more and more.

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Old 14-02-2018, 18:55   #39
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

The single largest determinant for cat upwind performance is the daggerboards - went out for a tool around on a friends recently acquired daggerboardless cat - upwind performance was absolutely woeful, we tacked back and forth without making any significant headway at all. If you can stop the hulls from driving sideways, coupled with all the options provided by a large deck platform and lighter weights, cats can easily outperform monohulls upwind
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Old 14-02-2018, 19:54   #40
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

I think it's funny that you think a Lipari and Lagoon 440 are condomarans. For both these builders I would think they are higher performance than many of their other builds. Let alone a whole slew of others. My definition of a true condo cat would be a Royal Cape Cat.
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Old 14-02-2018, 20:05   #41
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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To add to this, is there a standard for polars? Like STC conditions?
Yes. Polars assume lightship weight, a clean bottom and running gear, and flat water, with no doodads added to the hull that would effect wind resistance. Now to hit the polars, or beat them, you also generally need good weight trim, new sails, good trimming and good driving.
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Old 14-02-2018, 20:08   #42
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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Where do you find "steady 20 kn true or more" and "flat water" in the same place at the same time? I want to go sail there
Any one of thousands of islands. Just sail on the leeward side of it.
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Old 14-02-2018, 20:12   #43
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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Bit harder for me to pull up the keel once we hit though - particularly with our nice pointy bulb to dig in going either way. Do you have one or two boards?

And I'm a wuss who doesn't like running aground.

I do like that you sailed through there - shows that a performance cat in real world conditions does go upwind close enough to a cruising mono to make no difference in the real world. And clearly tacks well enough that it's not an issue tacking up a (broad) channel. I'm liking the idea more and more.

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Old 14-02-2018, 21:00   #44
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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yeah I suspected.. but I still don't see how this would help when going upwind at 5+ kts boat speed. At best this will make less drag if you have fixed props but I have folding props... Now if you push the revs a little you will just get more weather helm. I can only imagine he was talking very light wind conditions.

Starting at 7 or 8 kts TWS my L440 goes upwind pretty much like in the track I posted and would do so at about 5 kts boat speed.
It works the same for every cat. Having the motor in the leeward hull in gear and idling will cause that hull to try to go faster than the windward hull. As the leeward hull goes faster and the windward one goes relatively slower the boat will turn to windward a little. The boat will point a few degrees higher that it would under wind power alone.
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Old 14-02-2018, 22:32   #45
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Re: Upwind performance of condomarans

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You don't give much information but it's a nice looking track for sure !
Some more info:

Breeze was 18-20 kts true. Autopilot was set to 31' AWA.

One reef in the main, couple of turns taken in the headsail due to the apparent wind getting up close to 30...
Boatspeed was mostly 9-10 kts, getting into the teens after a tack, when the AP sails a bit low for a minute or two.

Sea state was pretty good, it can get a bit lumpy in there on a rising tide, but we were there at low.
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