Upgrading a Charter Cat

[sv_makai]

Yep we are in Solomons.

The only change in keith's list I would recommend the KISS wind gen. It costs a little more than the airmarine but half the four winds and it is almost as quiet. We found the airmarine to be very noisey as neighbors in an anchorage, but the do generate the best output for the dollar. But they don't make friends, especially the older ones.

The pactor cost can high intially but once you have it the annual cost is the subscription with a great access to email, weather files of all sorts, etc. many of our cruising friends have both or just a sat phone. The sat phone annual cost can be high with the monthly fees and usage fees and in some cases roaming. So which ever one you decide look carefully at the overall costs. We also found many free wifi sites all over the Caribe. And could very easily live without sailmail. We did spend months away from civilazation and that is where the pactor and ssb payoff. Whether you go sat phone or not a SSB is a must for saftey as well as friendly contact.

[Strygaldwir]

From a safety standpoint, I'd think satellite might be more reliable. There are a LOT of pieces to an SSB. The antenna's can be a major source of failure. If you loose your mast, one of those emergencies, and you have an backstay antenna, it might be sometime before you get something rigged up. I accidentily grabbed the lead on my antenna wire the other day. Broke right off! A portable satellite phone is simpler and has a lot less to go wrong than an SSB installation.

I love SSB for long range contact with other cruisers, but we can't call home to "mom" when we need to, and they can't call to us. (Okay, so that may be a good thing!)

I am partial to Four winds, not because of the lack of noise, but because of the high, low-speed output. Kiss is good, but I think Fourwinds is the best. I am going to rig my Air X marine with 6 blades, that might get me some decent output. But, in the anchorages I was in this summer, i saw on average about 16 amps every 24 hours from my Air X. I have the newer model, so noise was less of a factor for me. I can't hear it when I am inside and I bearly hear it from the front of the boat when outside.

[Sunspot Baby]

More on email:

Look at skymate.com. We have a Skymate unit and are very happy with it. There are some limits on coverage areas but is OK in the vast majority of the worlds cruising grounds.

It is not much different cost than going with a Pactor, but you aren’t affected by propagation. You pay by the character but if you use it only part of the year, you can go on the “drydock” plan for about $6 a month.

The position reporting ability is great, and up to twice a day at no fee.

We use ours about 6 months a year so it is not out of bounds.

FYI: If you get one, please tell them I referred you. I will get a $50 usage credit.

[cameron forsyth]

Thank’s for the feed back. The boat is in the phase-out process from the charter company. Spent last week with the surveyor inspecting, not happy, guests apparently like to run aground but that’s life when you try to get a bigger boat than you can afford for less.

Will install generator for dive compressor, with that in mind a summary from your recommendations

Solar panels Kyocera brand 120w +. Solicit clarification on the pros and cons between installing 12v versus 24v

Please technical summary on the function and need of controllers with solar. It appears from comments that quality of product was essential overriding price.
.
Boat presently has a conventional collapsible bimini. Thinking of removing and installing a fixed aluminum (boat yard recommends SS steel) frame for mounting solar panels.
Present dingy hoist is badly designed non functional and in the charter fleet never used, thinking of installing an arch davit. Opinions on pros cons SS steel v alum for fixed bimini plus arch.

Kiss wind generator probable preferable due quieter, although not as efficient as four winds

Water maker Spectra, since will have generator probable better 110v than 12v although I do anticipate restricted generator use. From your experiences, four crew, half of whom will not conserve water, what recommended capacity?

SSB, as cannot afford satellite.

Washing machine yes - dryer out

[svcattales]

Boat presently has a conventional collapsible bimini. Thinking of removing and installing a fixed aluminum (boat yard recommends SS steel) frame for mounting solar panels.
Present dingy hoist is badly designed non functional and in the charter fleet never used, thinking of installing an arch davit. Opinions on pros cons SS steel v alum for fixed bimini plus arch.

We removed the folding bimini frame and s/s davits from our ex-charter boat and replaced them with custom aluminum bimini frame and radar arch. After three years of use, we are still very happy with both and I believe the aluminum is lighter and doesn't rust like s/s. Both are very stong and I stood in the dinghy hanging from the arch to mount all the hardware.

The arch is a multi-functional platform for dinghy lift, solar panel, radar scanner, wind generator, tv antenna, SSB whip antenna, and GPS antenna. It puts everything out of the way and we can leave the engine on the dinghy without any concern about weight.

The bimini frame gives us better visibilty port and starboard and also serves as a mount for 2 165 watt solar panels. We did our own design and have full sun/rain protection at the helm and clear strata glass window which fold up in hot weather. See pics

[svcattales]

trying again with pics

[Strygaldwir]

Mppt (multi point power tracking) controllers essentially take the voltage-amperage coming from a solar array and optimize it based on the loads. it will take 75 volts at say 10 amps and turn that into 13 volts at 55 amps. If your batter bank is big enough and low enough to take that load. It will also act as a multi-step controller. It will charge batteries at a bulk, acceptance and trickle level if there is sufficient energy from the array. So, what could be done is to take 3 24 volt panels, wire them in series to maximize the voltage and minimize system loss, step it down to the appropriate voltages and charge your batteries appropriately. Great things!

I have the collapsable bimini, can't wait to get rid of it. The problem I have found with mounting the panels on the bimini is shade from the mast/boom. Shade REALLY does affect the output of the panels. The major reason to go to higher voltage panels is the efficiency in less than optimal conditions. The controllers are more efficient at higher voltage levels. I have noticed a decrease in ouput even from the shade of my wind generator that is mounted near by. But, if there is not a better spot, bimini it has to be.

Love the dinghy davits. We always raise our dinghy at night. The arch is my perfered spot for the solar panels.

Get a largish capacity watermaker. Something in the 300 gallon a day or more range. Ours produces 15 gallons per hour and we only run it for 2-3 hours every other day.

Portable satellite phones and service are LOTS cheaper than an SSB and Pactor model. ICOM m802 $1600, AT140 antenna tunner $200, 100 square feet of copper strap for counterpoise $250, antenna $200, insulated backstay $500, Pactor modem $800+ Coax, terminals, power lines, fuses/breakers monting brackets, $200. Globalstar portable satellite phone $900.

If you're going to have a significant solar and wind array, on second though, I'd go with a DC system. If you generator and invert goes down, you can still make water.

You thinking of a 8kw genset or so? I think you are going to need something at least that big to start up an electric dive compressor. Their starting voltages can be amazingly high.

Big boat, nice boat! How big is it?

Keith

[RandyAbernethy]

If you don't already have a dive compressor, check out Brownie's YP35. It's a Bauer with a bunch of marinized upgrades and a system that reduces the startup draw allowing them to operate on a 5Kw or greater genset.

http://tankfill.com/compressors/YPMedium.shtm

[islandflyer]

Yo Randy,

You must be on the South side. i'm anchored off Coral Gardens in Grace Bay. Great WiFi.

May I weigh in? Spectra sounds very efficient. that said, my Village Marine has been giving me 8 Gals per hour for 8 years now without any failures (KNOCK ON WOOD!).

Compressor info has been filed. Nobody on Provo seems to want to fill my tanks. (they cite "liability". Sure, in the Caribbean!) Methinks they just want captive dive clients.

Cameron:
While you're hooking up watermaker, little aside:

The fellow who helped me install mine added some extra valves both on input and output. Input: to take water from fresh water tank, Output: to divert to hose for other uses. Well, the purpose was to deliver extra pure water to fill batteries. Mine were sealed, so I promptly forgot about it.

Fast forward 3 years later.... Girl friend is having me shlep many jugs of water onto boat as my watermaker water is a tad salty. I'm using filters to try to improve quality etc... big pain. Ok, my ex in Cal. has bad tap water and has spiffy RO purifier. I'm thinkin about that down in Carib. about to dink ashore for girl friends water. Wow, wish I had an RO purifier! Duh!! Big Homer Simpson moment. I know, I tested pretty good in school IQ tests but I think I must be STOOOPID!!!

Well, now, i just re-direct tad salty fresh water once more for luck thru watermaker and hose into massive jugs. Water is Deelish!! Girlfriend is Happy. Earth is saved from plastic bottles!!

Anyhow, you need that hookup.

Mike

[islandflyer]

Thought i'd add: massive jugs are mine, not the girlfriends.

[Eleven]

I like the idea of additional tappings on the water maker. I'm planning on rainwater collection (UK OK) as much easier to clean up for drinking and much cheaper to use for washing. And there's always the sea of course but you know what happens then.
Howcome the water stays in the dink while you fall in the water?
Anyway sea water to rain tank, rainwater to drinking tank seems best by far.
There are now some water driven genny's that seem a good idea if you are actually sailing much, certainly losing a knot for a couple of hours to drive water maker is a good bet and very quiet and carbon free and so on. Evening/night watch, boat a bit slower, everything relaxed and full tanks and batteries for the morning.

[Erikte]

concerning compressors;

Compressor onboard

look at both pages

[SailFastTri]

Make sure you have a diode installed on the positive output of each solar panel (if your individual panels don't come with one built-in to the output). Otherwise a panel in a shadow will draw power from an unshaded one. You should also install a water-resistant junction box where the multiple panels are interconnected to the single wire leading to the controller (controller is mounted below decks).

Within the junction box you should use a screw-down terminal strip with separate screw for for each connection. The screw terminals will make it easy to isolate panels for testing if you suspect one is not putting out what it should. That's also where to insert your diodes. Diodes have solid leads so they must be soldered to the positive wire and screw terminal, which is in-turn screwed to the terminal strip. It all makes for an orderly and easily serviced electrical installation. (You should not use a diode on the negative lead, only the positive lead is required.) Ask your solar panel supplier about the diodes.

Other considerations for your electrical installation include a low-voltage disconnect circuit for your house bank, so refrigeration doesn't ruin your batteries when you leave the boat, and a battery monitor (which act as a "fuel gage" for your batteries).

There are numerous battery monitors. I have been been very happy with Xantrex's XBM but not happy with the Xantrex Link 2000. (The Link 2000 emitted too much RF interference that affects VHF band and possibly others, but the XBM does not have that issue). I find there is no need for the extra expense of the multi-bank monitors. A simple voltage meter is sufficient for engine battery status, but the house bank is important to monitor more closely.

[olliric]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Make sure you have a diode installed on the positive output of each solar panel (if your individual panels don't come with one built-in to the output). Otherwise a panel in a shadow will draw power from an unshaded one. You should also install a water-resistant junction box where the multiple panels are interconnected to the single wire leading to the controller (controller is mounted below decks).

Within the junction box you should use a screw-down terminal strip with separate screw for for each connection. The screw terminals will make it easy to isolate panels for testing if you suspect one is not putting out what it should. That's also where to insert your diodes. Diodes have solid leads so they must be soldered to the positive wire and screw terminal, which is in-turn screwed to the terminal strip. It all makes for an orderly and easily serviced electrical installation. (You should not use a diode on the negative lead, only the positive lead is required.) Ask your solar panel supplier about the diodes.

Other considerations for your electrical installation include a low-voltage disconnect circuit for your house bank, so refrigeration doesn't ruin your batteries when you leave the boat, and a battery monitor (which act as a "fuel gage" for your batteries).

There are numerous battery monitors. I have been been very happy with Xantrex's XBM but not happy with the Xantrex Link 2000. (The Link 2000 emitted too much RF interference that affects VHF band and possibly others, but the XBM does not have that issue). I find there is no need for the extra expense of the multi-bank monitors. A simple voltage meter is sufficient for engine battery status, but the house bank is important to monitor more closely.

Thanks for the tips.
Kyocera panels have a 2 or 3 bypass diodes already. For connecting the panels I am thinking to put them in series to get a high voltage, low copper loss and small diameter wiring. The MPPT regulator (Outback 60) can handle the high voltage. Either 5x135W 12V or 3x210W 24v, I am not sure if the 24v ones give an advantage.
Battery disconnect is a must and so is the battery monitor. I am thinking to put all the major electrical/electonic gear (inverters, monitor, ins. transformer, DC to DC converter etc.) in a closed cabinet with ventilation and farady cage construction. This way I should eliminate the RFI and protect the equipment in case of lighting.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by olliric

Thanks for the tips.
Kyocera panels have a 2 or 3 bypass diodes already. For connecting the panels I am thinking to put them in series to get a high voltage, low copper loss and small diameter wiring. The MPPT regulator (Outback 60) can handle the high voltage. Either 5x135W 12V or 3x210W 24v, I am not sure if the 24v ones give an advantage.
Battery disconnect is a must and so is the battery monitor. I am thinking to put all the major electrical/electonic gear (inverters, monitor, ins. transformer, DC to DC converter etc.) in a closed cabinet with ventilation and farady cage construction. This way I should eliminate the RFI and protect the equipment in case of lighting.

I haven't researched issues with series configuration so my questions are really questions: Even if your controller can handle the high voltage, can your panels?

The problem you solve if you put them in series might be less of a problem than the ones you will create: In series the disadvantages are that a failure in one panel will affect all, and any shadow on one panel from the rigging or sails will draw down the entire system (and create a hot-spot in the shaded portion of the panel).

Also, if you have 5x12v or 3x24v you will have no-load combined PV voltages much higher than 100vdc. (12v PV panels typically have no-load nominal voltages around 19-21v each). In reading elsewhere about electric-drive boats there are discussions touching on safety issues in dealing with high voltage DC (risk of arcing) that require special engineering. Have you consulted an engineer who has knowledge in that area?

For RF, you might also need to add ferrites to the wires in/out of your metal box.

As for lightning, the Faraday cage will not protect your electronics if the lighting flash comes in on the wire. A Faraday cage will only protect isolated systems. My boat was struck last year and the one thing I know for certain is that anyone who thinks they can control side-flashes is preaching religion, and neither faith nor bonding will protect 100% from lightning.... to sum it up: The damage was random and although the hull was not damaged, much of the electronics were.

BTW my 6 solar panels and controller weren't affected, and they have no special protection measures.