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Old 19-03-2008, 14:43   #121
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thoughts on performance?

Rob states....It would be faster, track better, pitch less, carry more weight for a given beam and width and have a nicer motion than a hull of 0.6.

Rob states in a previous proa thread on this forum....This just leaves me passing off my thoughts as facts.


With none of your proas (even with a hi pc ) having actually sailed, by your own admission, in what could be considered as testing conditions for any period of time its hard to understand what you base this on....Your thoughts?
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Old 19-03-2008, 15:00   #122
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Base comment

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Big Cat:
Would you consider me a “neutral” commentator, were I to counterpoint my acerbic (acid) wit, with caustic comments?
Surely such a base comment is beneath you-
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Old 19-03-2008, 15:12   #123
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BigCat,

I didn't suggest you originated the term 'flam'; I conceded that others use it. Doesn't mean it's not possibly archaic, or an American term. Ted Brewer spent about 20 years in the States. My fellow Canucks may take umbrage at this, but a lot of Americanisms have made it across the border

I understand what you're saying about rudder placement - everything's a compromise, eh. I don't think it is absolutely necessary to locate the props right in front of the rudders. An example would be Gideon's GreenMotion retractables which are offset from the rudders. I hope you report back with the good and not-so-good once you get the boat into the water. Cheers.


Gord - wouldn't you agree that the pun is considered a 'baser' form of humour?

Kevin
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Old 19-03-2008, 15:13   #124
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Surely such a base comment is beneath you-
Beat me to it!
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Old 19-03-2008, 15:19   #125
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"Gord - wouldn't you agree that the pun is considered a 'baser' form of humour?" To be fair, I started it with my comment about acid wit, playing on my typo of acetic for ascetic.
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Old 19-03-2008, 15:36   #126
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More on prop placement

"I don't think it is absolutely necessary to locate the props right in front of the rudders" Hi, Kevin- For fuel economy, catamarans sometimes motor with just one motor. I don't think you could do that if you placed the props elsewhere. Since I am fitting really big motors for commercial use, I wouldn't want to give that up. You don't want to motor for long times at less than 85% of top speed, as it isn't good for diesels to do that, so operating two diesels slowly isn't really an option. Then there is the question at maneuvering at dock. This would work better on a catamaran than on a monohull, because of the wider separation of the engines-so you can do some maneuvering by accelerating one motor more than another, or even by reversing one engine and keeping the other in forward, but you are still going to lose some maneuverability in close quarters if your props aren't fairly close in front of your rudders.
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Old 20-03-2008, 00:25   #127
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"I don't think it is absolutely necessary to locate the props right in front of the rudders" Hi, Kevin- For fuel economy, catamarans sometimes motor with just one motor. I don't think you could do that if you placed the props elsewhere.
Why not? Once the boat is moving at a couple of knots the rudders will steer it perfectly well. To accelerate initially you either use both motors, or just put one into gear and let the boat pick up a little speed before throttling up.

Manoeuvering into a marina berth you use the throttles mostly.
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Old 20-03-2008, 00:44   #128
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Its a performance cruiser not a barge.

It's made of Balsa and epoxy to keep it light

It has a conventional and fast sail plan because it is light fast and can sail.

Not everyone needs or wants to carry mountains of crap, some are happy with beanbags for furniture and a desal for water.

They even have outboards to save 400kg + in weight.

Most owners probably only stay away from supplies for a week at a time so feel no need to build an over high load carrying boat.

Most would prefer performance for the majority of their sailing and on the occasion when they MAY carry a bit of extra, they still sail fast and eventualy eat and drink the excess weight away.

A certain mentality is required to comfortably cruise a light displacement vessel and plenty cant do it.

Their lack of discipline should not be thought of as an issue with the boat or the design.

It is an issue with the owner.

Add: I also agree with 44ftCC, NONE, I repeat NONE of those pics look like an overloaded boat to me.

Dave
Well the 44C actually can carry a bit more than that.

Xtra Chilli has diesels, shaft drives, good fuel capacity, and a nice fitout. There are even tiles in the bathroom. Toothbrushes too. They cruise for 6 months at a time, and rarely visit marinas.

Outahia is a full time liveaboard, and regularly cruises the top end and Kimberlies. They have massive amounts of food and gear aboard. They don't frequent marinas either.

Out of The Bag has a very nice fitout, including a leather lounge, and is currently cruising South East Asia, having competed quite successfully in the King's cup regatta in Thailand. They also prefer to avoid marinas where possible.

All of these boats spend long periods being self sufficient, and carry enough to do so. They even have spare toothbrushes aboard.

You're right though Dave, you can't just go piling junk in willy-nilly. You do need some discipline.

A lot of people carry far too much rubbish on their boats. I've done it myself with our old mono. When we were emptying her out I had to offload ridiculous amounts of unneccessary gear.
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Old 20-03-2008, 13:12   #129
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"Why not? Once the boat is moving at a couple of knots the rudders will steer it perfectly well." Hello, 44'cruisingcat-Some of us might prefer to dock at speeds less than a couple of knots........not you, of course.........I've noticed that your personal style is rather, shall we say, assertive-I'm sure that any dock that has dared cross you has regretted it-
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Old 20-03-2008, 15:03   #130
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"Why not? Once the boat is moving at a couple of knots the rudders will steer it perfectly well." Hello, 44'cruisingcat-Some of us might prefer to dock at speeds less than a couple of knots........not you, of course.........I've noticed that your personal style is rather, shall we say, assertive-I'm sure that any dock that has dared cross you has regretted it-

BigCat,no need to twist peoples words just to pick a fight.I read the comment as meaning that if you want to cruise on only one engine, you need to get the boat up to a couple of knots before you can actually steer with the rudders,on only one engine.

Nothing to do with docking the boat.

I'm all for a vigorous and boisterous exchange of ideas, but this exchange is getting a bit onerous and boring for the rest of us.

Let's call a truce on the personal stuff,and move on to actually dicussing the subject of the thread - PLEASE.

Regards

Alan
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Old 20-03-2008, 15:22   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
"Why not? Once the boat is moving at a couple of knots the rudders will steer it perfectly well." Hello, 44'cruisingcat-Some of us might prefer to dock at speeds less than a couple of knots........not you, of course.........I've noticed that your personal style is rather, shall we say, assertive-I'm sure that any dock that has dared cross you has regretted it-
You are unbelievable. Do you read even your own posts? Maybe I should explain your post to you then. You were talking about motoring with one engine for ECONOMY. You even mention motoring for long periods. Is that docking? You said you didn't think it would work unless the propellors were directly in front of the rudders.

You were wrong. Someone like you will never admit that, but then you don't even own up when you make a spelling mistake, but, the fact is, you were wrong.

There are over a hundred Seawind 1000's, about a hundred Snell Easy's and numerous other outboard powered cats which can and do motor perfectly well on one motor, even though their rudders are not directly behind their propellors.
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Old 20-03-2008, 15:24   #132
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Alan, my point is that 44'cruisingcat has cited no basis for his statement that it doesn't matter whether or not props are in front of the rudders. It has been tried in the past, and I have read many warnings not to do it. I would agree that it wouldn't be as bad to do this in a boat with two widely separated propellers, because you can to some extent maneuver with your engines, but I don't see any basis for 44'cruisingcat's assertion other that his love of taking argumentative positions and escalating them to the point of rudeness and even profanity. Articles I have read show the use of engines and rudder positions simultaneously in maneuvering catamarans next to docks, including an interesting trick involving moving straight sideways by using your rudders and engines simultaneously. This clearly wouldn't work as well if the rudders weren't interacting with the props' stream.
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Old 20-03-2008, 15:27   #133
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Outboard motors can be turned

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outboard powered cats which can and do motor perfectly well on one motor, even though their rudders are not directly behind their propellors.
I am not discussing outboard power cats, as outboards can be turned, and therefore do not have the same issues as inboards.
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Old 20-03-2008, 15:33   #134
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I am not discussing outboard power cats, as outboards can be turned, and therefore do not have the same issues as inboards.
Wrong again. The outboards on Seawind 1000's Snell Easy's and most other twin outboard powered cats do not steer. The boats are steered by their rudders. You really don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do.
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Old 20-03-2008, 16:17   #135
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Well, here we go again with your tendency to personalize yacht design issues. As others are finding it rather tiresome, I won't respond to this aspect of your posts again, no matter how rude or abusive you become. I wonder why no one tries to rein you in? Perhaps they think it's hopeless. **** **** **** **** The fact that you can put your props elsewhere doesn't make it a good idea. Smaller boats can get away with things bigger boats can't, as the momentum, inertia, windage, etc. get too large for muscle power to overcome.
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