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Old 26-12-2009, 18:03   #76
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looks like the Bruce # for my F 31 is 1.5 with main & genny. My dacron main is 430 sqft and the technora flat top is 450. I would not want a main any larger to pay for or muscle around. For a larger boat I would divide the rig to keep things managable. Probably equal size schooner rig main and foresail with fractional jib and bow sprit for screecher. Dave
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Old 26-12-2009, 20:08   #77
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The Drago-sth I think Danish.

If we can trust the folding floats!

Fast, spacious, shallow draft, and can be folded for the marina time ....

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Old 26-12-2009, 20:09   #78
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Dragonfly?
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Old 26-12-2009, 22:05   #79
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DAveoncudjoe, you come in right behind the Newick and hotter than Hammerhead.......interesting stuff. Newick is lightest and smallest sail area. I would guess Virgin Fire mailsail at 1,000 + Sq. Ft.

Virgin Fire is Bruce #1.62 14,000 Lbs. Displacement with 1,530 Sq. Ft. SA

Newick Traveller is Bruce # 1.57 11,000 Lbs. Disp. 1,223 Sq. ft. SA

Chris White Hammerhead is Bruce # 1.43 17,000 Disp 1350 Sq. ft. SA
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Old 30-12-2009, 09:59   #80
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Louisiane

[QUOTE=Jmolan;367843]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
...I have a friend who has a 44' cat that does not have the same accomidations as other cats. It is my favorite Cruising Cat.....:-)
Nice looking cat. Sort of reminds me of the first French cat I imported to the USA. This was also the first of the Fountain/Pajot catamarans, known as the Louisiane 37.

It had that same smaller deckhouse that gave it much less windage and a much sleeker look that the predominate cruising cats of that era, the Prouts and the Catalacs. Just what I thought the market might be ready for, particularily the monohull guys that ranted on about how ugly multihulls were.

Now remember this was 1986-87 era that I brought it to the boat show">Annapolis Boat Show.

And I powered it with a single Yamaha 9.9 4 stroke outboard that could push it at 7 knots.

She was not as light weight as your friends, and likely had less sail area, so her performance was not up to your friend's vessel's capabilities.

Biggest negative I experienced was not having a central cabin that stretched out over the outer hulls to allow direct access without using the cockpit. I'll attached a few generic photos as I can find my old ones at the moment....(pre-computer days)
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Old 30-12-2009, 17:54   #81
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Conser 47

One gentleman who visited that first Annapolis Show and was intrigued with the Louisiane 37 was John Conser from Calif. He eventually developed his Conser 47 design that was to be geared towards 'kit construction'. Notice the similarities in the design concept.

Wonder if either of these two vessels influenced your friend's design of his 44 cat??
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Old 30-12-2009, 18:11   #82
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Firefly Trimaran

Back to the primary subject of this thread,...trimarans. It was doing this same period of time that I was looking thru out Europe for product to bring to the USA. I found the Dragonfly trimaran the next year and brought one to Annapolis Show that next year, 1987 if I remember correctly.

What a great little boat, but a bunch of things happened and we could not get product after selling all these US folks on it. Long story, but briefly we ended up redesigning the vessel and introducing our Firefly Tri.

What a great little boat unto itself...I had made lots of design changes based upon my own design capabilities, and the very considerable feedback we had garnered from potential clients we had talked with over a period of a year's time while marketing the two Dragonfly vessels we had received.

This vessel might be just a bit too small to meet your definition of a 'cruising' vessel, but I just wanted to say it was my first real serious consideration of the trimaran configuration, and I will say they can be an ABSOLUTE JOY TO SAIL....very predictable, and capable of be driven single-handed to higher extremes than the cats. Witness the French offshore vessels.
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Old 30-12-2009, 18:12   #83
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Beiland....thanks! That is the "look" I like in a Cat. Sweeping sheer with high bows, and a small pod or low slung wheelhouse.

I like Chris White's Atlantic series just for that reason, as well as the fwd. cockpit. It is just like my Searunner Cockpit!

I have been searching for any photo's of Joey Cabell's cat Hokule'a. No luck so far. It is a pod cat designed by legendary waterman Joe Quigg. It was built in 1975 and was heavy by today's standards, but is still very active. From Joey's story....I mean this guy is a legend among st waterman.

My memories of living there are vivid and intense. Surfing 20-foot tubes at Hanalei Bay. Sailing my 40-foot catamaran out of Hanalei and dropping in on 50-foot walls projecting down the line on the way to Nawiliwili. Swimming the Na Pali Coast in the summer and surfing it in the winter. Diving for lobster to make omelets for breakfast.
The passion is still strong today. Last summer my son, Trevor, my first mate, Ranney Warburton and I sailed the Joe Quigg-designed catamaran – that I built with Joe in 1975 – 1,200 miles to Fanning Island. We surfed open ocean swells at 15- to 20-knots plus, and spent the month of June down there surfing, diving and fishing.

When this guy says 50ft. He not pulling your leg, he knows what a wave is. That for me is the goal by sailing a multihull. The light, up on top, scooting along feeling you can only get in a non ballasted boat....
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Old 30-12-2009, 19:45   #84
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cruising trimarans

We have been living and cruising aboard our Norman Cross 46 for the last 15 years. We are not fast (avg 5kts on passages) but we have so much space inside, you have no idea! Anyone wanting space in a cruising tri should look at 44ft and up in lenghth!

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I like multis and there are some very nice Tris - but I have a problem visualising them as a long distance cruising vessel. They are fast and fun, but the living space is sparse compared to a cat, yet haul out is even more difficult due to width.
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Old 30-12-2009, 21:18   #85
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Back to the primary subject of this thread,...trimarans. It was doing this same period of time that I was looking thru out Europe for product to bring to the USA. I found the Dragonfly trimaran the next year and brought one to Annapolis Show that next year, 1987 if I remember correctly.

What a great little boat, but a bunch of things happened and we could not get product after selling all these US folks on it. Long story, but briefly we ended up redesigning the vessel and introducing our Firefly Tri.

What a great little boat unto itself...I had made lots of design changes based upon my own design capabilities, and the very considerable feedback we had garnered from potential clients we had talked with over a period of a year's time while marketing the two Dragonfly vessels we had received.

This vessel might be just a bit too small to meet your definition of a 'cruising' vessel, but I just wanted to say it was my first real serious consideration of the trimaran configuration, and I will say they can be an ABSOLUTE JOY TO SAIL....very predictable, and capable of be driven single-handed to higher extremes than the cats. Witness the French offshore vessels.
Were you authorized by Quorning Boats (the Dragonfly designer/builder) to "redesign" the Dragonfly tris? Seems to me when you buy a boat to make a close or near-exact copy of the hulls for commercial gain there is some bad karma involved unless some kind of agreement is in place first. I'm not connected with Quorning except as a customer, but it raised an eyebrow a few years back when I saw the Elan DF-800 knock-offs at the Annapolis show. Were you connected in some way with that effort too?
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Old 31-12-2009, 09:49   #86
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Were you authorized by Quorning Boats (the Dragonfly designer/builder) to "redesign" the Dragonfly tris? Seems to me when you buy a boat to make a close or near-exact copy of the hulls for commercial gain there is some bad karma involved unless some kind of agreement is in place first.
Its a long story, I'd rather not get into on this subject thread, but let it be said there were breeches of contract on several sides including another Danish gentleman who was appointed Canadian importer shortly after I was appointed US importer. We both never got our promised compliment of boats even after a full years negotiation.

You appear to accuse me of "buying a boat to make a close copy or near exact copy". Nothing is further from the truth, so I suggest you research your accusations more completely prior to accusing me of this.

If you visit my website you will find some of the considerable modifications I designed into the our Firefly vessel. Happenstance some of these same modifications were latter incorporated into the DF product, including the longer ama hulls.

Regrettably my mold maker fabricated some below standard molds due to low shop temperatures that winter, and ultimately this resulted in too much financial strain to continue the project after only 6 boats were built.


Quote:
I'm not connected with Quorning except as a customer, but it raised an eyebrow a few years back when I saw the Elan DF-800 knock-offs at the Annapolis show. Were you connected in some way with that effort too?
I was not connected with that effort at all. In fact I got of of the retail, wholesale, and building business in 1990-91 and went to work in the offshore oil business in SE Asia.

I have now come back to some limited boat designing and consulting work, and primarily motorsailers over 50'.
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Old 31-12-2009, 10:06   #87
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I am looking at an older Tri from the 70s that has the beds in the wings and as much storage as any monohull. I plan on using it to go crusing in and with its 18 ft beam it has more deck lounge space than most other boats.
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Old 31-12-2009, 10:09   #88
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Were you authorized by Quorning Boats (the Dragonfly designer/builder) to "redesign" the Dragonfly tris? Seems to me when you buy a boat to make a close or near-exact copy of the hulls for commercial gain there is some bad karma involved unless some kind of agreement is in place first.
I think this sort of logic takes you into unpleasant place where there is little to gain.

Perhaps we should ask Quorning if permission was obtained from Jim Brown by using a folding tri or if Brown got permission from Arthur Piver since Piver is largely credited for being the father of modern tri. Maybe we all tri designers should ask the polynesians. Heck, why not cats and monos? They shouldn't be exempt either. I'm certain Herreshoff heirs would be thrilled.

The problem with this line of pursuit is that it leads to a stifling of innovation. So why not take designers at word when they say they made innovations and then simply judge the improvements on their own merit?
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Old 31-12-2009, 10:40   #89
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Hi, gunslinger. Good luck with the tri. What design is she? Is she fit to go or do you have some work to do there? Nice way to be looking forward to 2010.

Steve
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Old 31-12-2009, 11:45   #90
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Quote:
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I think this sort of logic takes you into unpleasant place where there is little to gain.

Perhaps we should ask Quorning if permission was obtained from Jim Brown by using a folding tri or if Brown got permission from Arthur Piver since Piver is largely credited for being the father of modern tri. Maybe we all tri designers should ask the polynesians. Heck, why not cats and monos? They shouldn't be exempt either. I'm certain Herreshoff heirs would be thrilled.

The problem with this line of pursuit is that it leads to a stifling of innovation. So why not take designers at word when they say they made innovations and then simply judge the improvements on their own merit?
Maren I think you are off base. Have you taken a look at both boats in question before you took this position?
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