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Old 31-12-2014, 20:53   #106
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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It should be clear to anyone who frequents these forums what "cruising" means. Essentially, live aboard, self sufficient existence involving several hundreds of nm of travel, multiple day passage making minimum, over several months minimum, including blue water passages and remote anchorages. No marinas. And that's just the minimum. Up to a circumnavigation.

Don't give us the weekender alternative hopping between marinas. I could have done that on my Sunfish.

2 Hulls Dave
The cruisers that live aboard full time and go to remote anchorages are just a tiny portion in the universe of all that cruise. I find funny as some that live aboard full time and like to do long range cruising have this tendency to fell that what they do is the only way to cruise and that they are the only cruisers

Besides, probably you have not noticed that the vast majority of the ones that live full time in a boat do Coastal cruising, never crossed an ocean (neither wish to do that) and stay the winter on some cozy marina or port.

Wake up!!!!, someone that just do the "cruising season", weekend cruising or holidays cruising or even charter cruising is not less of a cruiser than you, at least when they are cruising, just a different type of cruiser. Most that do other types of cruising do that because it is the way they prefer cruising and have no desire or wish to live full time on a boat or to cruise differently then the way they cruise.

Regarding living full time the difference in space between your cat and a same sized boat like the Pogo is minuscule in what regards to live in a house or in a boat. You ask where you put the bread maker on a monohull and I ask where do I put my 5000 books, 3000cds, my Fireplace, my 300 wine bottles, my hi-fi my collection of paintings and all art objects I cherish?

I really need a big yacht
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Old 31-12-2014, 21:19   #107
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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I guess that would lead us to what is a cruising boat. The Pardeys or Jimmy Cornell on the first boats or the Shards, on the boat they used for more time and many others have done and do long range cruising in much smaller boats than the Pogo 12.50 and did not even have the privilege of speed that allows to carry considerable less load for a given long passage.

Anyway, this boat like the multihulls has a big load ability but like light fast performance multihulls, to go fast they need to travel light, that does not mean without cruising gear, but not like a condo cat or a medium heavy monohull, with AC, Genset, washing machine and all. Different cruising styles, different life styles.

Anyway the Pogo 12.50 shares with multihulls, at least some, another characteristic (besides low draft): they are unsinkable.
The video is too long for me to watch, since I'm actually out cruising, and have limited bandwidth.

But our boat DOES have stuff like watermaker, breadmaker, fridge, freezer, washing machine, large 3.5m RIB with 18hp motor, two toilets, 3 full queen size berths, full bathroom with hot water, separate shower, etc, we carry enough food fuel and gas to last us months... all the other stuff you end up carrying, spares, tools, shade sails, deck chairs, the list is near endless...

I'm inclined to think the boat in your video wasn't carrying much in the way of cruising amenities.
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Old 31-12-2014, 21:35   #108
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

44', see above...again, your definition of "cruising" may not apply to others.
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Old 31-12-2014, 21:48   #109
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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44', see above...again, your definition of "cruising" may not apply to others.
Nowhere did I say it did. But you miss the point: if I stripped all that gear off my boat, we'd easily sail at above windspeed, instead of around 90% of it. Compare apples with apples.
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Old 31-12-2014, 22:00   #110
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Ahh, got it. Sorry for the thread drift.
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Old 31-12-2014, 23:46   #111
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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The Dragonfly 1200 is a great offshore boat but the new models from Dragonfly are much faster. The 32 is faster then the 35 and the 1200, but speed is not everything and the Dragonfly 1200 is reasonably fast and is a very seaworthy boat.
I've not had the pleasure to sail the 32, but the 35 is faster than my 1200 and the 32 is also reputed to be quite fast. The 1200 is a fast cruiser -- definitely not a race boat, but would still be much higher performance than most production cruising cats. It's also far more comfortable than the smaller models and would handle large seas better.

As a practical matter, most boats are tougher than their owners and in rough conditions it's prudent to slow the boat deliberately to avoid breakage and for crew comfort. I've sailed our boat in 45k+ apparent winds on a beat in wind-against-current for hours at a time, and the phrase "are you having fun yet?" did come up in the Admiral's remarks. The 1200 can handle such conditions much better than the smaller models so even though the 35 or 32 are faster day sailing in the bays, the 1200 can carry much more payload and sail as fast or faster in open water conditions with greater crew comfort. Hands-down a better cruising tri.


Edit -- BTW if you saw them next to each other there's a big difference in sizes. Everything is much larger on the 1200. More freeboard, more beam (don't forget extra length is added in the middle, not at the pointy ends). The 1200 is also much heavier -- less easily overpowered and things tend to happen slower, so it's a little easier to sail.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:54   #112
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post

But our boat DOES have stuff like watermaker, breadmaker, fridge, freezer, washing machine, large 3.5m RIB with 18hp motor, two toilets, 3 full queen size berths, full bathroom with hot water, separate shower, etc, we carry enough food fuel and gas to last us months... all the other stuff you end up carrying, spares, tools, shade sails, deck chairs, the list is near endless...
Now that is cruising and being prepared for anything....
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:55   #113
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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I've not had the pleasure to sail the 32, but the 35 is faster than my 1200 and the 32 is also reputed to be quite fast. The 1200 is a fast cruiser -- definitely not a race boat, but would still be much higher performance than most production cruising cats. It's also far more comfortable than the smaller models and would handle large seas better.

As a practical matter, most boats are tougher than their owners and in rough conditions it's prudent to slow the boat deliberately to avoid breakage and for crew comfort. I've sailed our boat in 45k+ apparent winds on a beat in wind-against-current for hours at a time, and the phrase "are you having fun yet?" did come up in the Admiral's remarks. The 1200 can handle such conditions much better than the smaller models so even though the 35 or 32 are faster day sailing in the bays, the 1200 can carry much more payload and sail as fast or faster in open water conditions with greater crew comfort. Hands-down a better cruising tri.


Edit -- BTW if you saw them next to each other there's a big difference in sizes. Everything is much larger on the 1200. More freeboard, more beam (don't forget extra length is added in the middle, not at the pointy ends). The 1200 is also much heavier -- less easily overpowered and things tend to happen slower, so it's a little easier to sail.
No contest here. I agree with everything you say. I would say a lot easier to sail.

Have a nice year. All of you, a nice year with lot's of great sailing
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Old 01-01-2015, 16:01   #114
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

For those of you that actually sail the large cats and midrange tris, how afraid are you in big water? Have you had them in 20 foot swells? Do you have a parachute ready? What is your breaking point taking out the storm gear?
I ask this because my chosen cruising ground tends to get nasty without warning....
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Old 01-01-2015, 16:48   #115
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

So with your European knowledge why do those with the deepest pockets choose mono hulls instead of Multi hulls??? Happy New Year. R
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Old 01-01-2015, 16:54   #116
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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For those of you that actually sail the large cats and midrange tris, how afraid are you in big water?
That's a good question, but maybe not the right question. I don't start an offshore passage without reasonably determining that I should not become afraid for the forecast period. Then I monitor the models going forward to maintain at least a 96 hour forecast with "non-afraid" alternative strategies. This has worked for me, but I respect that it may sometime fail me and we'll have to improvise and run away. But remember the first safety rule of sailboats and airplanes - stay away from land. Big water is safer because you have more directions and room to run. My boat can run very well - this is a safety benefit for my elevated expense of having such a boat. Thankfully I have not had to prove it. Well, on second thought, we have run. But for comfort, not for safety.

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Have you had them in 20 foot swells?
Yes, at least. But because of prior planning these have been from astern and no problem, and usually were planned on and welcomed. Sleigh ride. Boarded cats seem impossible to broach, based on my experience as long as you're under headsails alone. They like to be pulled, not pushed.

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Do you have a parachute ready?
No. I plan to run away. I am not convinced that a chute is the best strategy for a high speed capable cat/tri. It may be the worst strategy. I appreciate that not all agree.

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What is your breaking point taking out the storm gear?
I have a storm jib I would rig whenever I suspect the run-away winds could challenge my genny furling gear - which would be a disaster if it failed. Otherwise we would furl early and run on bare pole. Drag warps if needed. The main comes down WAY early.

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I ask this because my chosen cruising ground tends to get nasty without warning....
A prudent precaution. My cruising grounds are very predictable, notwithstanding short term intensive squalls.

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Old 01-01-2015, 17:29   #117
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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For those of you that actually sail the large cats and midrange tris, how afraid are you in big water? Have you had them in 20 foot swells? Do you have a parachute ready? What is your breaking point taking out the storm gear?
I ask this because my chosen cruising ground tends to get nasty without warning....
It's hard not to get pissed off at questions like this. Cats have sailed everywhere, have survived all kinds of weather, have survived storms that have killed entire crews in monohulls.

20 foot swells are nothing. Swells aren't a problem in pretty much any boat. It's the short steep waves that make life uncomfortable.

We've been in 3-5 metre steep seas for days, with the occasional bigger wave. While it wasn't fun, we weren't in the least scared or worried. The boat was handling it easily. It was just noisy and tedious. And these were beam seas. If we'd started to get worried we could have improved things massively by simply changing course.

I don't know how often it needs to be said - these boats don't just flip at the drop of a hat, it takes serious stuff to turn them over.
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Old 01-01-2015, 17:53   #118
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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20 foot swells are nothing.
But they aren't "nothing" in a mono. They're the kiss of death. Displacement monos just can't surf in a straight line. Surfboards don't have keels. I don't fully understand the physics, but it must have something to do with exceeding hull speed and losing directional control with rudders WAY smaller than the keels. This is why it's mono gospel to drag warps to try to keep from surfing and rounding up. This is child's play in cats with a small exception for cats with LAR keels. They tend to get "locked in" on the rails and can get stubborn to turn with small rudders, but otherwise typically don't "round up" and get rolled.

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Old 01-01-2015, 18:09   #119
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Where do you guys get this sort of info, all it does is show you have very limited experience sailing mono hulls??
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Old 01-01-2015, 18:27   #120
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Mid size tri here...my boat likes the swells, once the waves start getting longer boats tend to lope instead of bound if you know what I mean....If you ever looked at the old Mate "From a Bare Hull " books you'll understand that our sailing renovation has been a gradual process as time and funds permit. Every year we get things done and go try them out. First on the list is safety and we soon added a furler for the jib and a removable inner stay for the heavy staysail/storm jib. This sail has yet to get used in anger because the furler works well. It does get used with the spinnaker however and reaching. Up here weather planning lets you know what may be coming and a bolt hole isn't far away...I carry enough warp and weight for a Abbot drogue but have yet to be in a situation where it would be useful, near the coast a parachute won't help long and after reading that series drogues are considered a one use item I think the Jim Brown car tire will wind up aboard first. Keeping the sail reduced to match the wind is all you really need as off wind a multihull is a whole different animal than a mono. Wave height greater than beam indicates your chances of getting rolled and a multi easily wins here. In any case deep water is your friend anywhere. The old west coast schooners always headed away from shore when it kicked up.

Pucker factor gets determined by experience with your boat and time in heavy weather. As a 20 something I was a deckhand on a purse seiner in Alaska and had to work through Mother Nature's inconveniences which was great practice. Sailing for fun it is much easier to avoid the worst. Typically up here one tends to get caught out pushing forward with narrow windows but planning your alternate stops gives you a bolt hole. I never mind running back from a blow, the sleigh ride is great fun and I've been many interesting places I would have missed without a open agenda. We also can slog through a blow in good comfort if the stop is ahead. We do heave to every now and then while rigging reefs or sails, typcally when channels are too narrow to give enough time to complete the change. And multihulls are nicer to work on without the rolling doing this with less worry from breaking waves.
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