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Old 29-12-2014, 13:57   #46
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

The big racing tri's do actually fly two hulls, and quite often. Probably not so much out in the ocean though.


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Old 29-12-2014, 14:10   #47
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Newt, without re-writing all the books on the subject, and painting with very broad strokes, here's where I see the differences in the boats you listed (and in general).

For the most part, most modern cruising cats have standing headroom accommodation in both hulls and in the bridge-deck cabin. You have to go way back to some early designs (Wharram...) or some current custom go-fast boats to find a cat where this is not true. As a result, in an ~40' cat you can get something like 250-300 square feet of standing headroom cabin space.

Contrast that with most tris, where the standing headroom cabin is in only the main hull (unless you look at the Neel's or Horstmann's). Taking your DF (or our Cross), the maximum beam of the main hull (at the sheer) is something under 8', and the maximum beam at the waterline (where your cabin sole is located) is something like 5'. With reductions for the pointy bits, your standing headroom cabin area is well under 200 square feet, and in that area you have to put all the same things you would expect in any 40' boat - head, galley, nav. station, engine... And the cockpit usually take up some of that space as well.

Compared with either a 40' cat or a 40' monohull the tri will have tiny accommodation space by comparison. So, from a living space perspective most tris would be the hands down losers of the three.

I contrast that with the tons of open deck space, the sailing capabilities, and the (to me) much more sea-kindly motion of the tri and I'm willing to accept the space constraints. Judging by market share, however, I don't think most people see it that way.
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:21   #48
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

newt,

I don't have any real tri experience except on my brother's Corsair, with that said I like the tri for a couple of reasons. The DF is a quality boat and expensive but if you don't mind "race boat spartan" instead of opulence, and if one is available (very small numbers), perhaps a Hammerhead 54 would suit you. "Hecla" sold about 18 months ago for around $250K. Of all the boats I've looked at, this one has the greatest speed range which for cruising you can have a good turn of speed while being very conservative on the amount of sail that is up. Should you encounter light winds you have the performance to move at a decent clip. Just my choice cause I don't like to motor.
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:27   #49
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Don't suggest the Hammerhead 54 to Newt, there are only three out there, and I want the next one that comes up for sale
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:39   #50
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Don't suggest the Hammerhead 54 to Newt, there are only three out there, and I want the next one that comes up for sale
Only 3 ??? OK, newt forget that cause I want Hecla should it come up again and Dsanduril wants one.

Do you have any videos of the 54 sailing? I could only find one of Flying Fish and that was a light wind day.

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Old 29-12-2014, 14:41   #51
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

I have salivated over a 54 for some time, but the only way I can get one is perhaps with a bare interior and putting in the interior by myself. 250? Yeah, good thing I didn't see it. Probably would have put my house up for sale...
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:50   #52
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
The big racing tri's do actually fly two hulls, and quite often. Probably not so much out in the ocean though.


Sure racing boats do lots of crazy stuff and accept much greater risks than cruising boats typically do.

The issue was the cruising boats in the videos weren't flying the main hull and the amas almost submerged. In a capsize risk situation where the main hull comes clear of the water (not just momentarily comes off a wave top), does the ama go under first and the boat risks cartwheeling.

Of course the videos while in lively conditions, aren't the near disaster conditions that the discussion revolves around.

Also, I'm in no way suggesting tri's aren't safe just that when push comes to breaking point (and all boats have a breaking point), they are likely to break in a different manner.
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:50   #53
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
I have salivated over a 54 for some time, but the only way I can get one is perhaps with a bare interior and putting in the interior by myself. 250? Yeah, good thing I didn't see it. Probably would have put my house up for sale...
It sold right here in the SF Bay area. What interior upgrades would you do? This is Hecla and it works for me as spartan as it is.

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Old 29-12-2014, 14:57   #54
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Well, between Oregon and the Bay Area there seems to be interest in 3 of them. Maybe we need to find a convenient yard, share some common tooling, and double the Hammerhead population....
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:59   #55
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Even on those with an older design you can see that when they bury a ama (min 0.26) they don't cartwheel:
If that comment referred to the video of the boat with the green spinnaker - The DASH 750, then its not an old design, the amas on a DASH are designed with significantly higher buoyancy than the earlier F24s and the like, also the hull shape is different and the main hull carries more volume further forward.
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Old 29-12-2014, 15:11   #56
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Sure racing boats do lots of crazy stuff and accept much greater risks than cruising boats typically do.

The issue was the cruising boats in the videos weren't flying the main hull and the amas almost submerged. In a capsize risk situation where the main hull comes clear of the water (not just momentarily comes off a wave top), does the ama go under first and the boat risks cartwheeling.

Of course the videos while in lively conditions, aren't the near disaster conditions that the discussion revolves around.

Also, I'm in no way suggesting tri's aren't safe just that when push comes to breaking point (and all boats have a breaking point), they are likely to break in a different manner.
I suggest you fall back and do some research, like most things in life it isnt as simple as it appears, There is a range of thought regarding beam dimensions and ama shape - level of bouancy on CRUISING tris, on racing boats its pretty much high volume amas and fly the main hull.

Start with Chris Whites " the Cruising Multihull" - its a good introduction to design theory.
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Old 29-12-2014, 15:15   #57
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Speaking of Chris White, here is a letter from Charlie, the owner of Flying Fish after a chance encounter with a Gunboat 90.........

Dear Chris, In this cat crazed sailing world, I wanted to remind you that your H-54 trimaran rules!

I doubt that any cruising boat as comfortable as Flying Fish goes as fast, and as we know "fast is fun".

I was reminded just how much fun last summer when my Hammerhead 54, "Flying Fish" came out from behind one the many islands of East Penobscot Bay to find the newly launched 90' Gunboat working to windward and headed for the Fox Island Thorofare. I had heard enough of the the Gunboat hype with never a Gunboat in any NEMA (New England Multihull Association) race I have participated in to not let such an opportunity slip by.

I gave chase, crossing under her transom and the race was on. The Gunboat was captained by Cam Lewis- captain from The Race with the boat sharing most of the carbon features of the 110 footers including Cuben fiber sails. I had a 75 year old monohull racing veteran at the helm for his first ever multihull sail.

The breeze was perfect, high teens with gust to 20 and flat water. We gained slowly and crossed their bow two tacks later. I made the mistake of tacking too far off-shore into rough water and losing our lead and then some. As we rounded the nav buoy and bore off slightly for the Thorofare we started to eat into their 100 yard lead. Before overtaking them they tacked away in what could only have been seen a face-saving move. As we came in under the land the gusts bumped up to 25kts and Flying Fish tagged 22kts.

The smile on my old monohull friend was almost as big as my own.

You nailed it with this one. This is the ultimate cruising tri, and for some of us only a tri will do.

Would be great to see you and Kate Downeast again soon.

Good Sailing Charlie
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Old 29-12-2014, 15:27   #58
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

I can tell you how our cruising tri compares in the PNW as we also did the Broughton Islands run. We sailed, no motoring, the slog up Johnstone Straight in the typical 20-30 knot headwind pattern. Reefed for conditions it is a quick pleasant romp with the heel only to about 10 degrees max, usually less. Every mono we saw motored to avoid the beat.

Once in the Broughtons in the lighter wind we were able to sail over 90% of the time to all destinations, helped in the reef and rock strewn waters by our shallow draft....most monos we saw powered, worried about channels and getting enough wind to move.

Coming back down Johnstone we made sure to get one of those approaching 30 winds behind us and had a fast stable sleigh ride, the monos put up their mains and throttled up their engines to get in ahead of the blow.

We had a great lumpy run in Georgia on the way back, cruising into Naniamo on big waves with some very startled large sport power cruisers who weren't used to sailboats going that fast.

A decent cat could do the same though having less windage and weight means smaller sails can drive the boat. A hot tri could do it faster but have less room and be less comfortable at anchor. The only other multihull we saw up there was a cat this year, last year we saw a Marples CC 44 tri headed North. Any multi has a easier time in the currents and rapids getting through with less fuss.
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Old 29-12-2014, 16:04   #59
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Only a couple of the videos played but...I didn't see the main hull flying and the downwind ama was almost completely submerged.

That suggests to me that if pushed harder in rough conditions, the ama could submerge. Yes,they try to compensate by making the amas very streamlined and having the arms lift up in a gull wing shape but the videos haven't changed the issue.

These were mostly day sailing examples with someone at the helm ready to react and not really pushing them to the edge like you would find in capsize threat conditions.
I guess you only saw the movie with the older designed Corsair, the only one that bury the ama.

The point was not to show on the movies that they do not bury the ama (they are not sailed that hard) but to show you that contrary that what you were saying there is a big influence on the cruising designs coming from the racing designs. The Corsair was posted as an example of an "old" design.


Here you have one of those performance cruising trimarans I posted before sailing on a ama.

By the way, they are making something new and very interesting on Corsair. I bet that in some years their designs will be quite different.
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Old 29-12-2014, 16:07   #60
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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If that comment referred to the video of the boat with the green spinnaker - The DASH 750, then its not an old design, the amas on a DASH are designed with significantly higher buoyancy than the earlier F24s and the like, also the hull shape is different and the main hull carries more volume further forward.
It is all relative. Look at what they are working on now on Corsair.
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